Anybody saying that “better coaching”, “the internet”, “6th year seniors” or “better pacing” are the sources of fast times should wear shirts that say “I set my PRs in super shoes and I can’t think critically”
Top 100 US lists for 2021 and 2022 are far and above anything US distance running has ever seen. Collegiate times even more so. To put it into perspect, 2022 indoor men's 5000m top 100 times are average 20 seconds faster than they've ever been (most of those run at BU where I think the shoes have even more of an effect). This also holds true for outdoor times for 3,000 on up. For example, 2022 US men's 10,000m top 100 average was 28:28. The next fastest year (going back to 2012 and not counting 2021 - which was second fastest and only a few seconds slower than '22) was 2019 at 28:49. Over 20 seconds faster! There are years when it averaged over 30 seconds faster for US men's 10,000m.
On the world level it wasn't as much. For 3,000 - 10,000 2021 and 2022 were either #1 or #2 fastest years for both men's and women's top 100 for every distance except one (forget which distance off the top of my head - I think men's 5,000m and in that case it was the 3rd fastest ever). While '21 and '22 seasons were the fastest ever, it wasn't by much. I think average for 5000m it was 5 seconds (where the US average was ~15 seconds for outdoor 5,000m).
There is no doubt that the shoes have had a tremendous effect on all US times. Anyone who doubts this can go to world wide athletics and average top 100 US times going all the way back to 2000. As soon as the shoes were introduced US times dropped... a lot.
I'll keep repeating the same thing until someone can explain it. If the shoes are such a massive difference, why is it only the American's that are seeing massive improvements? Shouldn't the rest of world be improving just as much? Do you have to be American to use Super Shoes?
We do train harder now, we do train smarter now. However, the overwhelming reason that there are so many fast times for American's as opposed to years ago, is the time trials. There are rabbited time trials every week now, and all over the country. Go back 10-years, and basically the only meet to run fast in was at Stanford, who hosted several of those per year. Go back 25-years, and it was Mt. Sac being the only place. And those were just for collegians.
For decades, for the top American's, it was mandatory to go to Europe if you wanted to run fast. That just isn't the case anymore.
Top 100 US lists for 2021 and 2022 are far and above anything US distance running has ever seen. Collegiate times even more so. To put it into perspect, 2022 indoor men's 5000m top 100 times are average 20 seconds faster than they've ever been (most of those run at BU where I think the shoes have even more of an effect). This also holds true for outdoor times for 3,000 on up. For example, 2022 US men's 10,000m top 100 average was 28:28. The next fastest year (going back to 2012 and not counting 2021 - which was second fastest and only a few seconds slower than '22) was 2019 at 28:49. Over 20 seconds faster! There are years when it averaged over 30 seconds faster for US men's 10,000m.
On the world level it wasn't as much. For 3,000 - 10,000 2021 and 2022 were either #1 or #2 fastest years for both men's and women's top 100 for every distance except one (forget which distance off the top of my head - I think men's 5,000m and in that case it was the 3rd fastest ever). While '21 and '22 seasons were the fastest ever, it wasn't by much. I think average for 5000m it was 5 seconds (where the US average was ~15 seconds for outdoor 5,000m).
There is no doubt that the shoes have had a tremendous effect on all US times. Anyone who doubts this can go to world wide athletics and average top 100 US times going all the way back to 2000. As soon as the shoes were introduced US times dropped... a lot.
I'll keep repeating the same thing until someone can explain it. If the shoes are such a massive difference, why is it only the American's that are seeing massive improvements? Shouldn't the rest of world be improving just as much? Do you have to be American to use Super Shoes?
We do train harder now, we do train smarter now. However, the overwhelming reason that there are so many fast times for American's as opposed to years ago, is the time trials. There are rabbited time trials every week now, and all over the country. Go back 10-years, and basically the only meet to run fast in was at Stanford, who hosted several of those per year. Go back 25-years, and it was Mt. Sac being the only place. And those were just for collegians.
For decades, for the top American's, it was mandatory to go to Europe if you wanted to run fast. That just isn't the case anymore.
Are you aware of the fleet of European / world / Olympic records that have fallen over the last 3 years? That’s just on the track, notice anything happening on the roads? Guys seem to suddenly be running faster across surfaces and countries. BU had fast meets every weekend before super shoes - not many 7:28s and 12:51s being dropped back then though
With the inception of the Super Shoe no need to try and compare results/performance to passed history. Coaching and workouts have not changed much at all. Since the shoes started showing up performance has been going up at an unprecedented level. No need to justify anything more. The shoes have changed and it's a new era. Let's not try to make coaches and training the reason for the obvious.
Ritz: "I never ran on BU’s track, so I have nothing to say about those, I guess. I don’t know. But I think the shoes do help for sure, but it’s just less at the level that these guys are at for sure than you see at like a collegiate or high school level. I mean, they’re so efficient, so powerful that it’s less and makes more difference the longer it goes."
He’s never raced on BU’s track so according to him, he’s not qualified to speak on its performance.
He’s also never raced in the new shoes, so I’d say he’s also not qualified to speak on their performance.
If the shoes make a 6s difference, that means elites are getting slower (if you adjust the times back 6 seconds).
Well, I agree that it is simple physics, but the question is - can the plates or foam be fine tuned to give a better return of energy for these highest-level performers.
One factor that may contribute to why they may not get as as much benefit from the supershoes/superspikes as the slightly lower-level performers is because the high level athletes need a more robust, or stiffer carbon-fiber plate to better catapult themselves, much like a stronger pole-vaulter gets more energy return from a stiffer pole to maximize the elevation of the jump. A more flexible pole may be ideal for a somewhat weaker pole-vaulter to get their ideal energy return but for the stronger vaulter, it is too flexible for them to get the energy return they would get with a stiffer pole which has the capacity to capture their higher energy input, store and provide higher energy return than the more flexible pole that works more ideally for the weaker vaulter who doesn't have the energy input required to transfer it effectively to the stiffer pole.
Any thoughts on this hypothosis
I would be stunned if Nike didn't built their shoe for their elite athletes... That being said maybe their is some event, athlete (125lbs vs 145lbs), foot strike, ... differences and maybe they could customize everything to get some more performance...
These high school phenom basketball players are getting some serious air. It’s hard to objectify but I’m sure there’s better shoe technology for dunking as well. Sure beats trying to dunk in chucks.
Top 100 US lists for 2021 and 2022 are far and above anything US distance running has ever seen. Collegiate times even more so. To put it into perspect, 2022 indoor men's 5000m top 100 times are average 20 seconds faster than they've ever been (most of those run at BU where I think the shoes have even more of an effect). This also holds true for outdoor times for 3,000 on up. For example, 2022 US men's 10,000m top 100 average was 28:28. The next fastest year (going back to 2012 and not counting 2021 - which was second fastest and only a few seconds slower than '22) was 2019 at 28:49. Over 20 seconds faster! There are years when it averaged over 30 seconds faster for US men's 10,000m.
On the world level it wasn't as much. For 3,000 - 10,000 2021 and 2022 were either #1 or #2 fastest years for both men's and women's top 100 for every distance except one (forget which distance off the top of my head - I think men's 5,000m and in that case it was the 3rd fastest ever). While '21 and '22 seasons were the fastest ever, it wasn't by much. I think average for 5000m it was 5 seconds (where the US average was ~15 seconds for outdoor 5,000m).
There is no doubt that the shoes have had a tremendous effect on all US times. Anyone who doubts this can go to world wide athletics and average top 100 US times going all the way back to 2000. As soon as the shoes were introduced US times dropped... a lot.
I'll keep repeating the same thing until someone can explain it. If the shoes are such a massive difference, why is it only the American's that are seeing massive improvements? Shouldn't the rest of world be improving just as much? Do you have to be American to use Super Shoes?
We do train harder now, we do train smarter now. However, the overwhelming reason that there are so many fast times for American's as opposed to years ago, is the time trials. There are rabbited time trials every week now, and all over the country. Go back 10-years, and basically the only meet to run fast in was at Stanford, who hosted several of those per year. Go back 25-years, and it was Mt. Sac being the only place. And those were just for collegians.
For decades, for the top American's, it was mandatory to go to Europe if you wanted to run fast. That just isn't the case anymore.
They are running faster just not as fast. Several WR have gone down including Bekele’s by someone who has no business running anything close to what Bekele ran.
I’ll keep repeating the same thing until someone can explain it - if super shoes offer no viable advantage then why run in them? But I’ll bet my next paycheck that 99% of athletes that toes the line at any major meet from HS to pro will have on some form of super shoe.
If super shoes were outlawed tomorrow you would see grown men literally crying over it.
As an experienced runner, I can say that sometimes form is a telltale sign of injury. for example one time I had a snapping in my popliteal muscle. I looked at my form and realized my leg wasn't straight during my swing through, which indicates a tight TFL muscle. So yes, bad form leads to injury. Imbalances lead to injury, tight muscles lead to injury. If nobody had bad form, the only running injuries that would exist would be stress fractures.
As an experienced runner, I can say that sometimes form is a telltale sign of injury. for example one time I had a snapping in my popliteal muscle. I looked at my form and realized my leg wasn't straight during my swing through, which indicates a tight TFL muscle. So yes, bad form leads to injury. Imbalances lead to injury, tight muscles lead to injury. If nobody had bad form, the only running injuries that would exist would be stress fractures.
I strongly disagree. There are many possible causes of injury besides bad form.
As an experienced runner, I can say that sometimes form is a telltale sign of injury. for example one time I had a snapping in my popliteal muscle. I looked at my form and realized my leg wasn't straight during my swing through, which indicates a tight TFL muscle. So yes, bad form leads to injury. Imbalances lead to injury, tight muscles lead to injury. If nobody had bad form, the only running injuries that would exist would be stress fractures.
I strongly disagree. There are many possible causes of injury besides bad form.
With many possible injuries besides stress fractures.
They are running faster just not as fast. Several WR have gone down including Bekele’s by someone who has no business running anything close to what Bekele ran.
I’ll keep repeating the same thing until someone can explain it - if super shoes offer no viable advantage then why run in them? But I’ll bet my next paycheck that 99% of athletes that toes the line at any major meet from HS to pro will have on some form of super shoe.
If super shoes were outlawed tomorrow you would see grown men literally crying over it.
I'm not saying the shoes don't help, it's just not near the degree that some of you think. A lot of you actually believe it's 4-5 seconds per mile...that's just insanity. I posted this in another thread, but it bears repeating...
Ritz ran 12:56 and medaled at World Half. Teg ran 12:58. Solinsky ran 12:55/26:59. Centro medaled at 1500 in 2011, Rupp ran 12:58/26:44 and medaled at 10,000 in 2012. Jager ran 8:00 despite falling on the last hurdle. It all culminated in 2016 when the Americans dominated the Olympic distance events (medals at 800, 1500, 3000st, 5000, marathon). What else happened around 2016...there were like 5 high school sub-4 milers.
My point is, the times and competitiveness of the Americans has been building for a long time. None of that has anything to do with shoes or a BU track.
For decades, the African runners have been running the kinds of times the Americans are now. Not coincidentally, they were also the only people medaling at global championships. You guys are acting like as soon as super shoes came out the Americans became competitive.