I've wondered about this. Is there a link between being DSD and race? For example, people of sub-Saharan African descent have a much greater risk of developing Sickle Cell Disease than people not from this region. Do people from sub-Saharan Africa have a higher rate of DSD or is it just a coincidence that all of the high-performing "famous" ones are from this region?
The explanation I've heard before is that these (and many other) conditions often go undiagnosed at birth in poorer countries and the baby with malformed or seemingly missing male external genitalia is simply deemed a girl and sent home. Obviously the biggest impact of this isn't realised until years down the line. Whereas, richer countries with advanced healthcare systems would catch this almost certainly immediately, but if not, then in one of the many healthcare follow ups we generally do for all children over the first couple of years. As such, the child is made aware of their actual sex before they would ever get near a running track.
Your view, and the view of the WA and CAS in the past, is that if XY DSD athletes like Caster Semenya, Dutee Chand, Francine Niyonsaba, Chrisitine Mboma -
Is there an authoritative reference to back the claim of Chand’s XY karyotype?
I agree that the XY persons with the kinds of DSDs that the current WA rules cover can't help how they were born. But I fail to see why that makes it "reasonable" for them to be given the right to compete in women's sports under any circumstances.
Your view, and the view of the WA and CAS in the past, is that if XY DSD athletes like Caster Semenya, Dutee Chand, Francine Niyonsaba, Chrisitine Mboma - and women's soccer star Barbra Banda - can reduce the amount of T their testes pump out to a low enough point where they no longer have a glaring advantage over females, this would be a "proportional outcome" that makes it fair for them to compete in the female category.
But I believe that even if these XY DSD athletes take medications to lower their testicular T to zero and they become crap at sports as as result, the fact they have testes and the other physical features that make them male, not female, means they don't belong in female sports at all.
After all, lots of male humans are born with, or develop, medical conditions over which they have no control and which can create difficulties and hardships for them in sports and in life. That's unfortunate for them. But the bad hand that fate has dealt some males doesn't mean it's "necessary, proportional and [or] reasonable" for them to be in girls' and women's sports. On the contrary, I think it's nuts.
I didn't write I agreed with CAS. I just explained how they came to their decision and why WA is acting the way it is. WA does not want the next policy to be reversed by CAS. Unlike you, they are not in the business of purity contest. They are actually trying to protect the competitive fairness for the athletes.
You are like those people who accuse their GOP lawmakers of not having the "courage" to ban all abortions without any exception. "We need to protect every unborn. It's nuts to suggest some of them have to die!" Yeah, that argument might be good for a tool to raise campaign funds from their rightwing base. But any bill to totally ban abortion is DOA.
CAS made it clear that Chand was a woman. You can argue all you want that she is not. That makes you popular within your own echo chamber. But that was zero practical value as far as protecting women's sports.
The Chand decision was issued 7 years ago. Much of the information, reasoning and misleading, inaccurate terminology used in it is now out of date. Same goes for the Semenya decision from 2019, albeit to a bit lesser extent.
In both court cases, Chand, Semenya and other XY athletes with their particular and similar disorders or differences of male sex development were called women - and other misleading terms such as "XY female athletes" - in order to protect the XY DSD athletes' feelings and self-images, and to show respect for the identity claims they make about themselves.
But in so doing, CAS and the other litigants participated in, and perpetuated, the view put forward by gender identity ideologues, which says that the words woman, girl, and female are all identity labels that have nothing to do with biological sex and thus they can be applied just as much to XY people with testes, male levels of T and male androgen receptors as to XX people with ovaries, female levels of T and female androgen receptors.
Using this inaccurate, intentionally misleading language in the Chand and Semenya cases benefitted Chand and Semenya and served the interests of other XY DSD athletes who claim it's their "human right" to compete in women's sports.
But at the same time, using this lingo delivered a figurative kick in the teeth to genuinely female athletes and the rest of us who actually are women, whilst also muddying the waters and sowing a lot of confusion.
Calling Chand and Semenya "women with hyperandrogenism," "XY female athletes," "women with DSDs" and "female athletes with high testosterone" and so on obscured the facts in their court cases and just made it more difficult for the litigants and the general public to see and state the core issues at the heart of these cases.
In the years since the Chand and Semenya cases were heard in court and the CAS issued its rulings, decision-makers and legal experts in sports and sport policy, and women's rights advocates, have become much better educated about the particular set of disorders or differences of male sex development that that Chand and Semenya have and to which the current WA rules on DSDs in women's competition apply. In ongoing discussions and legal briefs, language that is plainer, more accurate and honest is now being used for XY athletes with the particular kinds of DMSDs that are such a thorny issue in women's sport.
Also, as I am sure you know, in the Semenya case, the CAS backtracked on the position it took in the Chand case regarding athletics ltes' gender identities, self-perceptions of sex, and legal designation of sex on documents like passports and BCs. The CAS ruled that how athletes identify doesn't much matter nowadays and can't be used as the basis for eligibility in women's sports the way their biology can.
But I believe that even if these XY DSD athletes take medications to lower their testicular T to zero and they become crap at sports as as result, the fact they have testes and the other physical features that make them male, not female, means they don't belong in female sports at all.
After all, lots of male humans are born with, or develop, medical conditions over which they have no control and which can create difficulties and hardships for them in sports and in life. That's unfortunate for them. But the bad hand that fate has dealt some males doesn't mean it's "necessary, proportional and [or] reasonable" for them to be in girls' and women's sports. On the contrary, I think it's nuts.
People in power in sport as well as society no longer use the “features that make them male, not female” language, and use gender but not sex for determining participation rights or privileges, so using sex talk to exclude is outdated in civilized circles.
DSD people are perfectly capable of leading healthy and happy lives, so calling DSDs as the product of a “bad hand that fate has dealt” is transphobic, just like one might consider it nuts and misogynist to tell a non-trans/DSD women “tough luck, fate made you female and a lesser athlete than men” to justify any gender inequity.
Nope, a small minority of people grasped by a distorted, outdated blank slate theory-ideology don't use use gender or take into account sex to determine sports participation. These people are loud and motivated to spread their ideology, but that doesn't mean it's correct.
Your view, and the view of the WA and CAS in the past, is that if XY DSD athletes like Caster Semenya, Dutee Chand, Francine Niyonsaba, Chrisitine Mboma -
Is there an authoritative reference to back the claim of Chand’s XY karyotype?
Chand is subject to WA's eligibility rules for DSD athletes in women's competition that have been in force since CAS issued its ruling in the Semenya case in 2019.
WA has issued a number of documents stating that these rules only apply to athletes
who have one of a certain number of specified DSDs, which mean that they have: -male chromosomes (XY) not female chromosomes (XX) - testes not ovaries - circulating testosterone in the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L) not the (much lower) female range (0.06 to 1.68 nmol/L); and - the ability to make use of that testosterone circulating within their bodies (i.e., they are ‘androgen-sensitive’).
Is there an authoritative reference to back the claim of Chand’s XY karyotype?
Chand is subject to WA's eligibility rules for DSD athletes in women's competition that have been in force since CAS issued its ruling in the Semenya case in 2019.
WA has issued a number of documents stating that these rules only apply to athletes
who have one of a certain number of specified DSDs, which mean that they have: -male chromosomes (XY) not female chromosomes (XX) - testes not ovaries - circulating testosterone in the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L) not the (much lower) female range (0.06 to 1.68 nmol/L); and - the ability to make use of that testosterone circulating within their bodies (i.e., they are ‘androgen-sensitive’).
I take that as a negative answer to the question asked. Hyperandrogenism can be present in XX individuals. I was unable to find a reference, as was ChatGPT when asked the question in various forms.
”I'm sorry, I do not have access to any specific sources to confirm the claim that Dutee Chand has an XY karyotype. It is best to consult a medical professional or a scientific source for accurate information.”
”I apologize, but as a language model AI developed by OpenAI, I do not have the ability to reference specific sources or verify information beyond my training data. The information about Dutee Chand's karyotype might have come from news articles or scientific reports, but I cannot confirm this.”
Your view, and the view of the WA and CAS in the past, is that if XY DSD athletes like Caster Semenya, Dutee Chand, Francine Niyonsaba, Chrisitine Mboma -
Is there an authoritative reference to back the claim of Chand’s XY karyotype?
There was a whole court case about Chand specifically based on the fact that Chand is XY.
If Chand was a normal XX female there wouldn't have been a court case.
People in power in sport as well as society no longer use the “features that make them male, not female” language, and use gender but not sex for determining participation rights or privileges, so using sex talk to exclude is outdated in civilized circles.
DSD people are perfectly capable of leading healthy and happy lives, so calling DSDs as the product of a “bad hand that fate has dealt” is transphobic, just like one might consider it nuts and misogynist to tell a non-trans/DSD women “tough luck, fate made you female and a lesser athlete than men” to justify any gender inequity.
Nope, a small minority of people grasped by a distorted, outdated blank slate theory-ideology don't use use gender or take into account sex to determine sports participation. These people are loud and motivated to spread their ideology, but that doesn't mean it's correct.
I suspect you intended the opposite of the first sentence. What makes the vast majority of supposedly undistorted up-to-date unideological folks impuissant in a mostly democratic world, and whatever the explanation is, what if any is the reason to expect that state of affairs to change and revert to last century thinking?
I've wondered about this. Is there a link between being DSD and race? For example, people of sub-Saharan African descent have a much greater risk of developing Sickle Cell Disease than people not from this region. Do people from sub-Saharan Africa have a higher rate of DSD or is it just a coincidence that all of the high-performing "famous" ones are from this region?
The explanation I've heard before is that these (and many other) conditions often go undiagnosed at birth in poorer countries and the baby with malformed or seemingly missing male external genitalia is simply deemed a girl and sent home. Obviously the biggest impact of this isn't realised until years down the line. Whereas, richer countries with advanced healthcare systems would catch this almost certainly immediately, but if not, then in one of the many healthcare follow ups we generally do for all children over the first couple of years. As such, the child is made aware of their actual sex before they would ever get near a running track.
Sent home from where?
Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui, Seyni, Mboma, Masilingi, Chand and the other XY DSD athletes from sub-Saharan Africa and India in girls' and women's sports in the current century most likely were born at home or in a bare-bones birthing facility without medical assistance or supervision.
Deemed a girl by whom?
All the XY DSD athletes from sub-Saharan Africa and India in women's sports in the 21st century come from very poor backgrounds in places where medical checkups are not customary for babies, or for children and adolescents who are outwardly healthy.
To see a doctor, kids in the places where the XY DSD athletes come from would have to be desperately ill - and their parents would have to have enough money and wherewithal to travel to get their kids' medical help.
Since these athletes always had excellent health and fitness growing up, there was no reason for them ever to have seen a doctor or other HCP to get the kinds of thorough checkups that babies and children in Western countries and the wealthy in their own countries customarily get.
Even in countries with advanced medical care provided free by the government like the UK, babies aren't taken to doctors for through physicals at close, regular intervals the way they are in the USA - and later on, kids in the UK don't see pediatricians for annual "well child exams" like kids in the US do, either.
In addition, the parents of athletes like Semenya, Chand, Niyonsaba, Wambui, et al probably did not register their children's births with government authorities and obtain birth certificates for them either soon after birth or later on in childhood.
Birth registration rates amongst poor black people in sub-Saharan Africa and the poorest areas of India have historically been extremely low to non-existent.
As a result, there are no medical records or official government records dating to these athletes' childhoods or early adolescence that can be checked to see which sex they were "deemed to be" growing up.
Semenya, for example, didn't get a BC until 2007 when Semenya was 16 and already being hailed and celebrated as South Africa's "golden girl" runner. The BC issued to Semenya at 16 is the earliest-dated known official document stating that Semenya's is female.
Niyonsaba couldn't have gotten a BC growing up even if Niyonsaba's parents had wanted to because Niyonsaba was born at the start of the bloody Burundian civil war that lasted more than 13 years. This meant that for all of Niyonsaba's childhood, the government of Burundi didn't have enough of a functioning civil administration to keep its birth registry up to date and issue new birth certificates. Also, during the Burundian civil war, parents had plenty of incentive to try to pass off and raise all their young male children as girls so as to keep them from being taken away by the various warring militias and turned into child soldiers.
The births of Mboma and Maslingi 19+ years ago probably went unregistered too, as black parents in Namibia - which until 1990 was under rule of South Africa - historically avoided registering the births of their children as universally as black parents in SA did. But whereas SA has been very successful in its campaign to make birth registrations during early childhood the new norm, Namibia has not. Even today, poor black parents in Namibia have such low rates of registering their children's births that the government has had to enact a law that now gives teachers and social workers the legal right to register the births and apply for BCs for children they are not related to.
I've wondered about this. Is there a link between being DSD and race? For example, people of sub-Saharan African descent have a much greater risk of developing Sickle Cell Disease than people not from this region. Do people from sub-Saharan Africa have a higher rate of DSD or is it just a coincidence that all of the high-performing "famous" ones are from this region?
The two most common XY DSD conditions amongst athletes in women's elite track & field who are subject to WA's current DSD restrictions appear to be PAIS, Chand's condition, and XY 5-ARD, Semenya's.
From what I have read and been told, no studies suggest that PAIS or the two other forms of XY androgen insensitivity syndrome or AIS - CAIS and MAIS - occur at higher rates in certain ethic populations and places - or that there's any difference in the rates of occurrence in wealthy, so-called "developed" countries and poor, supposedly "less developed" or developing ones.
However, XY 5-ARD is known to be considerably more prevalent in certain populations and places than others because of its inheritance pattern. Like cystic fibrosis and hereditary hemochromatosis (aka "the Celtic curse") - both of which occur most commonly amongst those with northern European heritage - XY 5-ARD is an autosomal recessive condition, meaning a gene mutation has to be inherited from each parent.
This means XY 5-ARD shows up at unusually high rates in populations that historically have been relatively isolated and where the custom over many generations has been for people to mate with and marry "their own kind" locally - or from the home country in the case of expats and emigres.
Autosomal recessive conditions like XY 5-ARD show up especially often in cultures with customs of child marriage, cousin and other close-relative marriage, and arranged marriage to preserve familial wealth and bloodlines - and where a good number of girls and young women unfortunately end up pregnant because of rape by their close male relatives.
XY 5-ARD has been documented to occur with unusually high prevalence in places that include historically isolated parts of the Dominican Republic, Papa New Guinea, the Indian subcontinent (particularly the parts that are now Pakistan and Bangladesh), remote regions of Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestinian Gaza, and rural southern China.
But tellingly, none of those places have a history of entering youths with XY 5-ARD in girls' and women's athletic competitions and trying to make women's international sports stars out of them. That's something only certain countries in sub-Saharan Africa have made a point of doing.
So the reason that nearly all the known XY athletes with DMSDs in elite international women's sports competition in the 21st century come from sub-Saharan African countries can't be explained by the demographic distribution of these rare medical conditions alone.
The explanation has to be more the result of additional factors such as the politics, social mores and high level of official corruption in certain sub-Saharan African countries - combined with the low rates in those countries childbirth under medical supervision, the low rates of registering kids' births during their childhoods, and the lack of "well child" medical checkups as kids and adolescents grow up.
Indian track & field legend P.T. Usha says that at any given time, there are a relatively large number of XY DSD athletes amongst the up-and-comers in junior girls' track & field competition in India. But Usha, Indian sports authorities, the Indian government and the Indian press and public have never supported the inclusion of Indian XY DSD athletes in women's and girls's sports in the gung-ho way that sports officials, governments, the press and the public in certain sub-Saharan African countries like South Africa, Burundi, Niger, Zambia and Namibia have.
In the years since the Chand and Semenya cases were heard in court and the CAS issued its rulings, decision-makers and legal experts in sports and sport policy, and women's rights advocates, have become much better educated about the particular set of disorders or differences of male sex development that that Chand and Semenya have and to which the current WA rules on DSDs in women's competition apply. In ongoing discussions and legal briefs, language that is plainer, more accurate and honest is now being used for XY athletes with the particular kinds of DMSDs that are such a thorny issue in women's sport.
How is this even relevant for future CAS decisions? Has there been any change to what the expert witnesses testified at CAS?
The bottom line is that trying to question whether certain athletes are women or not is a bad strategy for protecting the competitive fairness in women's sports. If you are interested in a broader cultural warfare, that's a different matter.
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