djm wrote:
Read it again. He never said a 25 minute tempo run is to intense for a training run. I think Louden may have misspoken.
Misspoken? Then what exactly do you think Malmo said? Its pretty clear.
djm wrote:
Read it again. He never said a 25 minute tempo run is to intense for a training run. I think Louden may have misspoken.
Misspoken? Then what exactly do you think Malmo said? Its pretty clear.
You're right it is clear.
Loudon wrote: A 25-min tempo run is (as malmo says) too intense for a training run.
Malmo wrote: 25 minutes at half marathon pace is WAY to hard.
Obviously two different things.
malmo's guide to tempo runs:
By feel (not by chart); when it feels good on a 'regular' run
3-5 times per week; 3-8 miles at marathon pace
5-6 miles at HM pace is too hard
10-12 miles occassionally at M pace is ok for some (not all) athletes
Source:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=19892&page=0
Here wrote:
malmo wrote:25 minutes at half marathon pace is WAY to hard.
Please read before you respond.
25 (or 26, 22, 45, 35 or 20 minutes) isn't the point. The pace is the point. If you cannot do tempo runs four or five times a week, you're running them too hard. Half marathon pace is too fast. Tempo runs should leave you invigorated not fatigued.
Yup. I surely quoted malmo wrongly. Mea culpa.
I MEANT to write, "A 25-min tempo run [at HM pace] is (as malmo says) too intense..."
malmo wrote:
1/2 marathon pace is way too fast for a tempo run. Try marathon pace.
A 25 minute run at MP is not much of a workout. 20-30 minute tempos at HMP are very useful. Many define tempo as faster still.
Ravenmaniac wrote:
malmo's guide to tempo runs:
3-5 times per week; 3-8 miles at marathon pace
Source:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=19892&page=0
To clarify: you 'should be able' to do them 3-5 times a week. That's not the same as saying you 'should' do them 3-5 times a week. Work in the qty of tempos around your current schedule and goals. They should never be an end in itself.
The ideal time to put in 4 or 5 tempo runs is during a base build-up, especially during the winter. The roads are free, use them.
by half wrote:
A 25 minute run at MP is not much of a workout. 20-30 minute tempos at HMP are very useful. Many define tempo as faster still.
The primary reason why those same runners are unable to run distances over 10k.
20-30 minutes at HMP is a race, not a workout.
I liked malmo's quote (re: 5 miles at HM pace) from that other thread: "If you can do that three times a week your 1/2 PR is crap"
Actually I love it.
The HM is an extremely fast race (if you are doing it right), and as I posted earlier, it is really only a little slower than a 10k.
I ran a pretty good (for me anyway) 1/2 back in the first week of December and granted, I'm not as fast as you folks, but you'll see the point momentarily.
I ran 6:13 pace (1:21:30) and I didn't expect even that. Here's what I did for about 8 weeks:
M- 2 hours moderate
T- easy 9
W- 2 wu, 5 miles at 6:30-6:35, 1/2 mi jog, 2 x 1 mile at 5:50, 5 x 200, 2 mi cd
Th- easy 9
F- 1 wu, 8 mi at 6:40, 5 x 200, 2 mi cd
Sa- easy 9
75-80 miles
I ran very uneven splits, coming through 5 miles at 31:20, 10 miles at 63:00 (which is some of your 13.1 time) and then I went 6:06, 5:53, 5:52!!
Where was that pace in my training?? Nowhere. I am relatively new to running and the idea of running, for 13 miles, a pace that I hardly ever touched in training, absolutely blew my mind.
I hope to get under 1:18:00 in this race by next year and I'll use the same format of training to get there!!
Malmo's right
Malmo - what about 10K to 10 mile training? About every week or every other week, I run a 4-6 miles at current HM pace. Is this too fast?
o-you wrote:
W- 2 wu, 5 miles at 6:30-6:35, 1/2 mi jog, 2 x 1 mile at 5:50, 5 x 200, 2 mi cd
Malmo's right
That should be 2 x 1 mile at 5:55, not 5:50, as I was aiming at about 8k pace. Sorry.
There was really a 13 mile marker?
Anyway, you went out just a little too slow if the splits were accurate, and still a very good race. Shoot for 6:10 pace or 1:19:45 next time. And if you have a track, run some 800's in 2:50 with a 400 jog between.
malmo wrote:
20-30 minutes at HMP is a race, not a workout.
Really? 6-11k (and let's face it, most runners here are doing 7-8k in 25 minutes) at 21k pace is a race? How close to 10k pace do you think HM pace should be, so as not to be 'crap'?
o-you wrote:
I ran 6:13 pace
then I went 6:06, 5:53, 5:52!!(
Where was that pace in my training?? Nowhere.
Um...
o-you wrote:
2 x 1 mile at 5:50, 5 x 200
by half wrote:
A 25 minute run at MP is not much of a workout. 20-30 minute tempos at HMP are very useful. Many define tempo as faster still.
malmo wrote:
The primary reason why those same runners are unable to run distances over 10k.
Unable to run over 10k? I think that's a bit deceptive. Kenyans, for example, routinley go beyond 25 minutes at HMP and faster in training. Didn't Canova write that a major weakness of American training is in fact our unwillingness to go fast and long? I know that was with reference to Kenyan depth in the 5/10k, but it's those same runners who move up to the half and marathon, and Kenya's hundreds of sub 2:20s must be doing something right.
Tergat's HM pace is 7.75% slower than his 10k. (plus 20 seconds)
For our purposes use 8%. (That would be plus 25 seconds for a 31 min. 10k). Anything as close as 8% and below is not "crap" IMHO.
malmo wrote:
louis riel wrote:45-minute tempo
6 x mile with 1-minute jog
3 x 2 miles with 2-minute jog
3-mile warmup, 45 minutes at half marathon pace, 3-mile cooldown
Perhaps the reason why so few can run a half marathon is because their tempo runs are too fast? 25 minutes at half marathon pace is WAY to hard.
No hills? Good luck with your plan.
malmo, it depends on the rest of your training. You ran a lot of miles much faster than many of your rivals. For them, 45 minutes might have been ideal.
I run 90 % of my mileage off road. When I do run on a road or track, I can train very hard and still recover quickly.
louis riel's training above is what I do also, plus plenty of hills.
Good discussion here. Interested in the varying understandings people have of the phrase "tempo run"
Is this argument partly about periodization?
In the base phase I think that malmo's definition of a tempo run is a useful one. Pace/effort calculations are thrown off by winter footing, but I find that once I'm into a good groove with the training I'll get into those faster runs approaching marathon pace (or effort) and hold it for a while at least twice a week, often more. And it's not tiring if it's coming naturally, if you're not forcing it.
But later in the season closer to races I run a couple of workouts on Daniels' marathon plan where there are 30-45 minutes at actual half-marathon pace. Those are tough. You can't do those more than a couple of times a week. The next two days at least are genuine recovery days. But for simulating what races will be like I found them very valuable.
There's a place in the season for both types of tempo run.
MarathonMind wrote:
There was really a 13 mile marker?
Anyway, you went out just a little too slow if the splits were accurate, and still a very good race. Shoot for 6:10 pace or 1:19:45 next time. And if you have a track, run some 800's in 2:50 with a 400 jog between.
Thanks for the kind words, and yes, there was indeed a 13 mile marker. I'm unfamiliar with the way to run a good 1/2, so I went out conservatively. I now know that a faster time was possible since too much was left in the tank.
By the way, I had a BAD coach who didn't perscribe as much aerobic work as I had heard (via these board) that I needed. I dropped that coach, took some of the advice given on here, and took a 30:30 8k time to this 1/2 marathon time in 8 weeks.