Was Noureddine Morceli the first African to use EPO in August 1992?

What about your Flo-Joes, Carl Lewis...

I remember Aouita saying in a Radio interview in the 80s that Carl Lewis was a pure propaganda.

EPO was first sold in the USA in 1989. In the 800m, Wilson Kipketer September 1, 1996:

4 1:41.11 Wilson Kipketer DEN 12.12.70 1 Köln 24.08.1997

5 1:41.24 Wilson Kipketer DEN 12.12.70 1rA Zürich 13.08.1997

9 1:41.73 Wilson Kipketer DEN 12.12.70 1 Stockholm 07.07.1997

14 1:41.83 Wilson Kipketer DEN 12.12.70 1 Rieti 01.09.1996

22 1:42.17 Wilson Kipketer DEN 12.12.70 1 Tokyo 16.09.1996

23 1:42.20 Wilson Kipketer DEN 12.12.70 1 Bruxelles 22.08.1997

1500m: Morceli September 6, 1992

10 3:27.37 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Nice 12.07.1995

12 3:27.52 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Monaco 25.07.1995
13 3:27.64 Silas Kiplagat KEN 20.08.89 1 Monaco 18.07.2014

16 3:27.72 Asbel Kiprop KEN 30.06.89 1 Monaco 19.07.2013

18 3:28.12 Noah Ngeny KEN 02.11.78 2rA Zürich 11.08.2000 22 3:28.37 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Monaco 09.09.1995

The First time?

42 3:28.86 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Rieti 06.09.1992

123 3:29.99 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Rieti 01.09.1996 125 3:30.00 Rashid Ramzi BRN 17.07.80 1 Roma 08.07.2005 130 3:30.06 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1rA Zürich 04.08.1993

233 3:30.75 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1rA Zürich 19.08.1992 (or here?)

285 3:31.00 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Helsinki 27.06.1991 His best a year earlier at 21. No reason not to improve at 22, right? Maybe he was already a user.

285 3:31.00 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1rA Zürich 07.08.1991

285 3:31.00 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Rieti 03.09.1997

290 3:31.01 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28.02.70 1 Stockholm 03.07.1991 290 3:31.01 Vénuste Niyongabo BDI 09.12.73 2 Rieti 01.09.1996

Steeplechase (1995?):

39 7:59.52 Moses Kiptanui KEN 01.10.70 1 Bruxelles 25.08.1995

90 8:02.08 Moses Kiptanui KEN 01.10.70 1 Zürich 19.08.1992

5000m (June 8, 1995?)

8 12:44.39 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Zürich 16.08.1995

149 12:55.30 Moses Kiptanui KEN 01.10.70 1 Roma 08.06.1995

188 12:56.15 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 2 Roma 08.06.1995

223 12:57.23 Worku Bikila ETH 06.05.68 3 Roma 08.06.1995

Hold on now ... he caught diabetes? While trying to defend his family? From drugged butcherers? At night?

How did he catch the diabetes? Was it from the butcherers? If so, was it because they were drugged, or just simply that they were butcherers and so the fact that they happened to have been drugged is purely incidental?

Or was it because this all happened at night? I mean, if I try to defend my family while my village is being attacked by drugged butcherers during the DAYTIME, am I less likely to catch the diabetes?

That was the consequence of "fear" emotion.

Didn't you learn that diabetes can be caused by great fear shock?

He stood in his home for whole night frightened awaiting the assault of aggressors.

Desperate times, desperate measures.

The way the Kenyan lets Cacho by on the inside is suspect.

Morceli sound asleep, El G running like a neophyte.

Read the post that started the thread. The question isn't if he doped like you are suggesting. Plenty of people think that. It is if he started after losing. That seems unlikely. The odds of say his brother sitting him down at 20 and explaining what needs to be done to be a champion are a heck of a lot higher than losing 1 races and deciding EPO is the answer. Even if he was clean and decided doping was the way to go, starting it up at the end of the season was an unlikely way to go.

I did read the post. I also don't have to and didn't agree with it - though I will say if we are honest neither scenario (brothers "advice" vs "tragic" loss at Olympics) are totally implausible nor are they necessarily what actually happened.

Seems unlikely to you? Cacho looked like a 3:28 runner in that Olympic final, and as he later shown, he was. And we all know, and Morcelli must have known, it was down to EPO.

Morcelli's best was 3:31.0

There's a big difference between a 3:31 guy and a 3:28 guy. It's the difference between Jake Heyward and Jacob Ingebrigtsen.

Morcelli's career trajectory has all the hallmarks of somebody who went on EPO, and went off EPO. Doubt if he was any more ethical than the rest, but it's as possible that he was a bit wary of the stuff given that cyclists had been dropping dead, as well as a couple of runners. He pretty much fell off a cliff after he won his gold, as well as the anemia problems in 97.

He went on it as soon as he realized he had too, and came off it as soon as he didn't need it anymore. That's as plausible as anything.

It's all speculation, and we'll never know 'for sure' if he even took EPO at all, but I can't see why it's implausible to suggest he started it after a psychologically scarring Olympic defeat as favorite to an obviously juiced inferior athlete, and then improved his personal best by nearly 2 1/2 seconds in 4 weeks and became almost invincible (until El G came along).

Watch the Bislett mile from just the year before. It looks like a different era to post Barcelona 1992, and it was. Crazy to think if Peter Elliott hadn't gotten injured again, he would have been favorite for gold in Barcelona.

In 1991 virtually noone was on EPO. By 1993, just about all the top guys appeared to be. Do you think all of them went on this stuff that cyclists were dropping dead of in the winter of 91 with no reservations and no certainty at that point it would even work?

What makes you say that? Neither over 1500 nor over the mile was a big jump between 1991 and 1993. In fact, the only two of the top-10 over 1500 and the mile until the end of 1993 were Morceli and Kemei (4 seconds slower than Morceli), all the rest was from the dirty '80s (ok, part blood transfusions were legal back for part of the 80s):

1 3:28.86 Noureddine MORCELI 06 SEP 1992
2 3:29.46 Saïd AOUITA 23 AUG 1985
3 3:29.67 Steve CRAM 16 JUL 1985
4 3:29.77 Sydney MAREE 25 AUG 1985
4 3:29.77 Sebastian COE 07 SEP 1986
6 3:30.55 Abdi BILE 03 SEP 1989
7 3:30.77 Steve OVETT 04 SEP 1983
8 3:30.92 José Luis GONZÁLEZ 16 JUL 1985
9 3:31.01 Jim SPIVEY 28 AUG 1988
10 3:31.13 José Manuel ABASCAL 16 AUG 1986

1 3:44.39 Noureddine MORCELI 05 SEP 1993
2 3:46.32 Steve CRAM 27 JUL 1985
3 3:46.76 Saïd AOUITA 02 JUL 1987
4 3:47.33 Sebastian COE 28 AUG 1981
5 3:47.69 Steve SCOTT 07 JUL 1982
6 3:47.79 José Luis GONZÁLEZ 27 JUL 1985
7 3:48.40 Steve OVETT 26 AUG 1981
8 3:48.80 William KEMEI 21 AUG 1992
9 3:48.83 Sydney MAREE 09 SEP 1981
10 3:49.08 John WALKER 07 JUL 1982

Well, he was only 19 years old in 1989.

Still managed to rank number one in the world in 1990 at age 20.

He won the 1991 world championships by a full 2.0 seconds at age 21.

Running 3:28 in 1992 at age 22 seems like a straight forward progression with that kind of talent.

It's not like Nick Willis who wan 3:36 at age 20 and 3:29 at age 32. (I really like Nick, by the way. Just making a comparison)

Honest question:

do you just come to this site to argue with people or cause conflict?

Why his progression stopped at the age 27?

@L turd

I was answering the one that extended the accusations of EPO.

Morcelli was flying starting September 1992:

worldathletics.org

Noureddine MORCELI | Profile | World Athletics

Open link

1993

3:29.20 (1500m)
3:30.06 (1500m)
7:29.24 (3000m) (why they don't count this as a WR at that time?)

That's 8 years of running at a world ranked level.

My progression stopped at age 26. I hit a plateau and woke up with my feet hurting every day. If I kept training full time, I don't think I was going to get much faster. Once you've peaked it's hard to keep going. I only ran 3:42.

He knew he couldn't keep up with El G and wasn't interested in running for 2nd after being #1 in the world for 7 straight years.

You might be right as it was indeed only in the later part of the decade that the times seemed to go down in the 1500. But then that only supports my point that everybody didn't decide to go on EPO overnight. Why is Morcelli deciding to go on EPO after losing in Barcelona less plausible than him 'always being doped'? And why would Morceli have been doping in 91 if the top Kenyans etc weren't until later in the decade?

Do you agree that Cacho was on EPO in Barcelona? At what point do you think it is likely Morcelli went on it?

I accept that there was some blood doping going on in the 80's, but you can't just assume that all the top guys were doing it because times declined a little in the late 80's. There is not always an equal level of talent in every generation. Coe, Cram, Ovett, Aouita all effectively retired or got old by 1989, and there wasn't similar calibre around to replace them.

Athletics was already starting to decline in the UK and other countries by the second half of the 80's, both in terms of audience and participation. If it wasn't for EPO, times would likely continued have declining through the 90's and 00's.

Nearly every boxing fan accepts that the top boxers today (for the most part, and especially the heavyweights) could not hold a candle to those of 'golden eras' in the past, such as the 1970's. But it has nothing to do with doping.

Morceli closed the ‘91 World Champs with a 51.55 last lap within a 3:32.85 performance winning by 2 seconds. He was in 3:29 shape right then and there. I’m suspicious he was on something as his performances are ridiculous. As a championship performer, he had no readily apparent weaknesses (unlike Jakob/El G- speed). That being said the ‘92 performance was pretty inexplicably bad.

Yeah I would agree 100% with that. 8 years at the top of the world in the 1500/mile is VERY impressive.

And at some point what do you have to achieve? The guy won 3 World titles, an Olympic Games and set 3 WRs (1500, mile, 2000m). In 95 he had 2 cracks at his WR set earlier in the season - twice at Monaco and came within a second running the 2nd and 3rd fastest times ever. He had a shot at the mile and ran the 2nd best time ever (3.45.19) - it's not implausible to suggest that he might have accepted that this was it in terms of his potential. At this point only the Olympic chip was left and he of course got that in '96.

Anecdotally you could point that being it for him mentally and emotionally because of course he lost the Grand Prix final to El Guerrouj in Milan (race below) after Athens in 96 and never came close to him again.

It was the classic race for Morceli to win and in the style he had dominated championship races throughout the early and mid 90's with, and with 100 to go El G blew the doors off him. That was the passing of the syrin... I mean torch in the 1500m/mile right there... :-D

It’s probably worth noting if you look at the 1500 it is an event rife with outliers. There’s a base level of ability which seems to be possible since the 70s:

soloing a 3:32-33

Closing a 3:34 -3:37 race in 1:48-9/52/38

running 3:29/3:46 in a time trial type race

But then you have athletes who hit certain benchmarks that break through this:

El G/Morceli/Lagat/Ngeny/Kiprop 3:26-7, 3:43-5 miles in fast races

Morceli crazy last laps in Worlds

Cacho ‘92 performance etc.

Abdi Bile last 800 in his World Title

Tim C solo 3:29.1 (albeit windless, conditions)

Makhloufi bizarre 2012 gold

Ramzi.

Some of these guys were caught or all but caught. Others have some form pretty shady context. A few I’d say you’re really just trying to conceptualize their peak abilities more than having a ton of reason to doubt them.

Own tiers:

definite dopers in prime : Ramzi

almost certain dopers in prime (85%): Makhloufi, Kiprop, Cacho

Likely doping (65-70%): Morceli, El G

Toss-up (50%): Lagat

Real Possibility (25-30%): Ngeny

You never know (10%): Cheruiyot, Bile.

Most of current day studs fit into the bottom 2 categories in my estimation. I’m sure some will call me naive for that.