Looking up your results, you ran 3:01 at the 50k champs, and won by nearly 4 minutes. That just seems incredibly petty to change the rules to keep someone like that out.
Is there anything you know of that we can do to help you? People to call or email? I'm sure you don't know much more than we do, but I'd bet lots of us would be willing to stick up for you. Right now, that just means posting our support on this thread.
”If you want to auto select, I suggest you return to Hechsher and win the 50k AND do it under 3 hours which you are very capable of doing.”
I live in Germany now. You want me to fly to NY, rent a car, drive to Long Island and run a 50k with barely any competition and hope the weather is good enough in early March for a decent time? I did that once already and you changed the rules - why would I do that again?
Looking up your results, you ran 3:01 at the 50k champs, and won by nearly 4 minutes. That just seems incredibly petty to change the rules to keep someone like that out.
Is there anything you know of that we can do to help you? People to call or email? I'm sure you don't know much more than we do, but I'd bet lots of us would be willing to stick up for you. Right now, that just means posting our support on this thread.
I’ve exhausted my options. I’m extremely poorly connected in the sport. Just trying to make enough noise that maybe something changes.
Try emailing Roy Pirrung, the MUT AAC representative, along with Will Leer the current AAC chair. They should at least be able to put you in the right direction and tell you if they can advocate any policy or whatever.
USATF AAC is meant to be a go between in these situations.
Try emailing Roy Pirrung, the MUT AAC representative, along with Will Leer the current AAC chair. They should at least be able to put you in the right direction and tell you if they can advocate any policy or whatever.
USATF AAC is meant to be a go between in these situations.
”If you want to auto select, I suggest you return to Hechsher and win the 50k AND do it under 3 hours which you are very capable of doing.”
I live in Germany now. You want me to fly to NY, rent a car, drive to Long Island and run a 50k with barely any competition and hope the weather is good enough in early March for a decent time? I did that once already and you changed the rules - why would I do that again?
If you weren't living in Germany now, I'd offer you a comped entry to the Barron Collier Half down here in Naples (Florida, not Italy). Offer would include free shuttle to & from airport, accommodations, and with your p.r.s, you'd stand a better than decent chance at some prize $$. Sorry about your World Cup debacle. Offer stands either way........
Is it possible you didn't read the procedures fully?
I did several archived page searches on the 50km team qualifying page. They all say the minimum 50km time 3:00:00 must be achieved at the National Championship to earn the auto-qualifier. Here's the archived page from December 2021:
Is it possible you didn't read the procedures fully?
I did several archived page searches on the 50km team qualifying page. They all say the minimum 50km time 3:00:00 must be achieved at the National Championship to earn the auto-qualifier. Here's the archived page from December 2021:
Is it possible you didn't read the procedures fully?
I did several archived page searches on the 50km team qualifying page. They all say the minimum 50km time 3:00:00 must be achieved at the National Championship to earn the auto-qualifier. Here's the archived page from December 2021:
Maybe it's what the drafters intended, but I don't think it's at all clear from this that the minimum performance standard has to be achieved IN THAT RACE
Automatic selection will be given to the first U.S. Male and first U.S. Female at the following races, provided minimum performance standards are met (see 2 above)
Is it possible you didn't read the procedures fully?
I did several archived page searches on the 50km team qualifying page. They all say the minimum 50km time 3:00:00 must be achieved at the National Championship to earn the auto-qualifier. Here's the archived page from December 2021:
Maybe it's what the drafters intended, but I don't think it's at all clear from this that the minimum performance standard has to be achieved IN THAT RACE
Automatic selection will be given to the first U.S. Male and first U.S. Female at the following races, provided minimum performance standards are met (see 2 above)
Agree with the above comment, the original text is not clear.
I’d also like to know if there was a timing mat (or official timer) at the marathon distance during the 2022 race so you have an official marathon split. If there was no mat (or timer) then it implies to me that the time criteria could have been met at a separate race and not necessarily at the National Championship races.
Is it possible you didn't read the procedures fully?
I did several archived page searches on the 50km team qualifying page. They all say the minimum 50km time 3:00:00 must be achieved at the National Championship to earn the auto-qualifier. Here's the archived page from December 2021:
I’ve gone through a few times but maybe I’m missing something. Can you please paste where you see that the 50km time must be achieved at the national championships?
All I have seen this entire time is “provided the minimum standards are me (see 2)” with “see 2” referring to two times: 3:00 in the 50k or 2:22 in the marathon. I don’t see anything about that standard needing to be in the championship race and I’m not sure how I would run a 2:22 marathon in a 50k.
Is it possible you didn't read the procedures fully?
I did several archived page searches on the 50km team qualifying page. They all say the minimum 50km time 3:00:00 must be achieved at the National Championship to earn the auto-qualifier. Here's the archived page from December 2021:
I’ve gone through a few times but maybe I’m missing something. Can you please paste where you see that the 50km time must be achieved at the national championships?
All I have seen this entire time is “provided the minimum standards are me (see 2)” with “see 2” referring to two times: 3:00 in the 50k or 2:22 in the marathon. I don’t see anything about that standard needing to be in the championship race and I’m not sure how I would run a 2:22 marathon in a 50k.
Maybe it's what the drafters intended, but I don't think it's at all clear from this that the minimum performance standard has to be achieved IN THAT RACE
Agree with the above comment, the original text is not clear.
I’d also like to know if there was a timing mat (or official timer) at the marathon distance during the 2022 race so you have an official marathon split. If there was no mat (or timer) then it implies to me that the time criteria could have been met at a separate race and not necessarily at the National Championship races.
There actually was a split at the marathon which was stated to be for Boston marathon qualifiers. I’m not sure that this split was “record eligible” and certified but it could have been.
I still don’t buy that though —qualification based on a race split sounds significantly more strange than qualification based on a time standard achieved elsewhere. Plus there’s an entire section on record eligible courses and what courses count.
I do not know a single person who would have used the wording they used to say that a standard needs to be met in a race. The rest of the rules read with the precision of a legal document.
We can argue about what the intention of the qualification writers was but their intentions do not have any relevance. We are over a year into the qualification period and 3 months from the end of the window. The auto-selection standard is what is written, not what someone “was thinking.”
If you are allowed to amend the rules based on what you “were thinking” then you can basically disqualify any auto-selection candidate you don’t like, which completely removes the purpose of the auto-selection standard.
Imagine if the committee decided they didn’t like the team that finished top 3 at the Olympic marathon trials and decided that they only intended the race to select the team if the top 3 times were under the Olympic A standard? It would completely erase any faith in the process.
It's clearly stated in #3, and this is from the archived page in December 2021, which is before you ran the 50K National Championship. It doesn't appear to have been changed after you ran the race.
3. Automatic selection will be given to the first U.S. Male and first U.S. Female at the following races, provided minimum performance standards are met (see 2 above) 2022 Caumsett Park 50K (USATF National 50K Championships), March 6, 2022
It's clearly stated in #3, and this is from the archived page in December 2021, which is before you ran the 50K National Championship. It doesn't appear to have been changed after you ran the race.
3. Automatic selection will be given to the first U.S. Male and first U.S. Female at the following races, provided minimum performance standards are met (see 2 above) 2022 Caumsett Park 50K (USATF National 50K Championships), March 6, 2022
The minimum performance standards in 2 are quite clear: 3:00 or 2:22. Where does it say those standards must be met in the race?
If Roy Pirrung and Will Leer don't clear things up, contact the USOPC ombudsman. I can't post a link, but google "USOPC athlete ombuds" and it'll be the top link
I work at a different NGB, but we've run into these issues before with championship qualifications. You have a bulletproof case for automatic selection. In retrospect, they might have wished to have tie the minimum performance standards to the championship event, but they didn't. (No disrespect to OP), but if they screwed up, that's their mistake, and they can't take your position away. What they published is the standard, no questions about it. CAS would take your side.
I will say that when you have multiple avenues/requirement to qualify, it's much harder than you might expect to make the documents convey exactly what the drafters intend. We have a legal department at our NGB who is supposed to massage these things into making sense, and (at least for the Olympics) USOPC also has to look at the standards. And we've still had situations where we fill our quota without getting the athletes we thought the criteria would select.
It's clearly stated in #3, and this is from the archived page in December 2021, which is before you ran the 50K National Championship. It doesn't appear to have been changed after you ran the race.
3. Automatic selection will be given to the first U.S. Male and first U.S. Female at the following races, provided minimum performance standards are met (see 2 above) 2022 Caumsett Park 50K (USATF National 50K Championships), March 6, 2022
The minimum performance standards in 2 are quite clear: 3:00 or 2:22. Where does it say those standards must be met in the race?
It sounds like you aren't comprehending what's clearly stated. You had to run 3:00:00 or faster at the Caumsett 50km to earn the auto-qualifying spot.
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