How accurate are steps per minute on Strava or Garmin?

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3 years ago 10/12/2022 5:27pm EDT

re: Bullet the Blue Sky

Bullet the Blue Sky wrote:
Elevation is typically the least accurate data you get from a watch, unless is has a built-in altimeter. Most apps/sites like Garmin and Strava use known elevation maps to make corrections and/or interpolations. However, lots of elevation data is sparse (30m grid), so you will see variations due to lack of granularity. It's a tradeoff for faster processing, etc.

Here’s how Strava does it:

https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/115001294564-Elevation-on-Strava-FAQ

My experience with a barometric altimeter on my Garmin is that 20ft swing on a flat track is normal. It has 10ft of resolution (at sea level and 15C, this is a pressure change of 0.01 psi), wind and temp swings will mess with it. it’s practically a miracle they work as well as they do.

Cadence measurement has been spot on. The acceleration forces with each step are (relatively) huge and easy to detect by a watch with an accelerator.

Is 173 good? Bad? Read this and don’t worry, the only thing that matters is the individual in front of you.

outsideonline.com

It’s Time to Rethink the Ideal Running Cadence

mmirhashem

Real-world data shows elite ultrarunners average 180 steps per minute—and that means nothing

Open link

3 years ago 10/12/2022 6:54pm EDT

re: vegan69

vegan69 wrote:
8/10, had me until five national championships and nine time All-American. Also, who uploads an 800 to Strava?
What's his VO2 max?

There's always that one guy on here like this. Here you go...

2020 AAU outdoor track 3000m

2020 AAU cross country

2021 AAU indoor 1500m (meet record)

2021 AAU indoor 3000m (meet record)

2022 USATF indoor 3000m

Now can we get back to people who can give some advice on increasing turnover since it is a running message board?

3 years ago 10/12/2022 9:11pm EDT

re: Manbearpig15

Manbearpig15 wrote:
vegan69 wrote:
8/10, had me until five national championships and nine time All-American. Also, who uploads an 800 to Strava?
What's his VO2 max?
There's always that one guy on here like this. Here you go...
2020 AAU outdoor track 3000m
2020 AAU cross country
2021 AAU indoor 1500m (meet record)
2021 AAU indoor 3000m (meet record)
2022 USATF indoor 3000m
Now can we get back to people who can give some advice on increasing turnover since it is a running message board?

With those results it sounds like his cadence is fine

3 years ago 10/12/2022 9:42pm EDT

re: Manbearpig15

Manbearpig15 wrote:
vegan69 wrote:
8/10, had me until five national championships and nine time All-American. Also, who uploads an 800 to Strava?
What's his VO2 max?
There's always that one guy on here like this. Here you go...
2020 AAU outdoor track 3000m
2020 AAU cross country
2021 AAU indoor 1500m (meet record)
2021 AAU indoor 3000m (meet record)
2022 USATF indoor 3000m
Now can we get back to people who can give some advice on increasing turnover since it is a running message board?

OP is probably a troll. He's definitely a jerk.

For what it's worth I sometimes do a very similar workout- 6 x 800 @ 2:35 with diagonal jog recovery leaving every 4 mins (1:20-1:25 total recovery)

I run with a cheap Garmin 35S. The cadence is very reliable though. I went back and checked the last time I did this workout and I had consistent cadence of 182-185 spm through the 800s. I'm 6'-2" , 155 lbs and in my early 40s.

If I had to guess, I've shortened my stride and increased cadence for the same speed as I've gotten older. Low cadence is viewed as being bad as it can indicate excessive time on the ground or collapsing with each foot strike.

173 spm seems a little on the low side for 5k race pace which seems to be what the workout was targetting. If you want to increase stride efficiency, consider:

1) Basic form drills,

2) a 6 week 800 training block

3) some conscious, but not excessive focus on bringing your heel to your butt while popping the ball of your foot off the ground with each stride

I wouldn't expect massive changes but as I get older I have had moderate success focusing on efficiency and turnover during workouts instead of going to the wall each rep.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 2:11am EDT

re: Manbearpig15

Manbearpig15 wrote:
colder and wiser wrote:
You're being that guy.
180 spm isn't some mythical gold standard. The science behind it is flimsy. Everyone is built differently and has different optimal stride rates/lengths. More steps per minute doesn't magically give you speed - you have to compensate by taking shorter strides, and the result may or may not be faster or any better for your son.
Your son needs a coach. Let the coach do his job.
Your son needs a dad. Stick to your job. If your son is feeling off in a workout and isn't having a great season, you can help by showing support, sympathy and confidence. Or you can compound the problem and create new ones by expressing frustration and disappointment.
I've been coaching him for eight years. I think we're doing fine. Five national championships and nine time All-American seems like a decent result so far.
As far as cross country coaches at the local school - one doesn't coach weekends and the other is a football coach with an 0-7 football head coaching record that thinks CrossFit training is cross country training. I'm not letting my kid near that. They have one kid at 19 minutes and everyone else is 23+ minutes.

If this was true, why would you be on a LetsRun message board asking this question, Coach?

3 years ago 10/13/2022 4:26am EDT

re: Hardloper

Hardloper wrote:
Manbearpig15 wrote:
There's always that one guy on here like this. Here you go...
2020 AAU outdoor track 3000m
2020 AAU cross country
2021 AAU indoor 1500m (meet record)
2021 AAU indoor 3000m (meet record)
2022 USATF indoor 3000m
Now can we get back to people who can give some advice on increasing turnover since it is a running message board?
With those results it sounds like his cadence is fine

Thank you. Appreciate the positive response.

He just looked off during that workout. And then today he ran for 50 minutes at about 6:40/mile and only had 163 steps per minute.

He's got wheels and can turn it up when necessary. His 4:10 1500m PR had a 59.64 final 400m.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 5:00am EDT

re: Manbearpig15

I don't track my runner's steps very often, but when I do, their numbers are often a lot lower than I expect. I've stopped putting any thought into it. 160-170 is very common with good runners I've had.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 5:04am EDT

re: high school xc coach

fwiw, I've found SPM to be very accurate on my watch while im running, but WAY off when I am walking.

is this the first time you've looked at his cadence?

3 years ago 10/13/2022 7:09am EDT

re: high school xc coach

high school xc coach wrote:
fwiw, I've found SPM to be very accurate on my watch while im running, but WAY off when I am walking.
is this the first time you've looked at his cadence?

He's never been a 180+ steps per minute guy. It seems like lately the number has dropped to a point where I think he could be losing significant distance.

I've talked to him about staying focused on why we do certain things and using the proper intensity when it's needed but I'm not sure how much of it is getting through. He's 15 years old and he thinks he knows everything.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 7:21am EDT

re: Manbearpig15

Manbearpig15 wrote:
I've been coaching him for eight years. I think we're doing fine. Five national championships and nine time All-American seems like a decent result so far.
As far as cross country coaches at the local school - one doesn't coach weekends and the other is a football coach with an 0-7 football head coaching record that thinks CrossFit training is cross country training. I'm not letting my kid near that. They have one kid at 19 minutes and everyone else is 23+ minutes.

Is he happy?

3 years ago 10/13/2022 7:41am EDT

re: poo bowl

poo bowl wrote:
Manbearpig15 wrote:
I've been coaching him for eight years. I think we're doing fine. Five national championships and nine time All-American seems like a decent result so far.
As far as cross country coaches at the local school - one doesn't coach weekends and the other is a football coach with an 0-7 football head coaching record that thinks CrossFit training is cross country training. I'm not letting my kid near that. They have one kid at 19 minutes and everyone else is 23+ minutes.
Is he happy?

I think most of usually err on the side of "trust the coach" but at the same time we recognize there are some real nightmare coaching scenarios out there, especially if you are a talented runner.

tough spot for a parent. obviously you don't want to drive them away, but a competitive kid will definitely not be satisfied by the results under an incompetent coach, especially if he has an idea of what good training looks like. probably more ideal if that good coaching doesn't have to come from a parent, but it has worked well for the Coes and Ingebrigtsens of the world, even if it isn't always great for the parent/son relationship.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 10:46am EDT

re: Manbearpig15

Yes, you should be concerned...about becoming a helicopter parent. I've been running almost 50 years and never once knew or cared how many steps per minute I run. Minutes per mile, yes; steps per minute, no.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 12:54pm EDT

re: Manbearpig15

Manbearpig15 wrote:
colder and wiser wrote:
You're being that guy.
180 spm isn't some mythical gold standard. The science behind it is flimsy. Everyone is built differently and has different optimal stride rates/lengths. More steps per minute doesn't magically give you speed - you have to compensate by taking shorter strides, and the result may or may not be faster or any better for your son.
Your son needs a coach. Let the coach do his job.
Your son needs a dad. Stick to your job. If your son is feeling off in a workout and isn't having a great season, you can help by showing support, sympathy and confidence. Or you can compound the problem and create new ones by expressing frustration and disappointment.
I've been coaching him for eight years. I think we're doing fine. Five national championships and nine time All-American seems like a decent result so far.
As far as cross country coaches at the local school - one doesn't coach weekends and the other is a football coach with an 0-7 football head coaching record that thinks CrossFit training is cross country training. I'm not letting my kid near that. They have one kid at 19 minutes and everyone else is 23+ minutes.

And here is where you out yourself. If you have been coaching him for 8 years with all that success you more than likely know what you’re doing and would know that stride rate isn’t something to stress over.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 12:59pm EDT

re: Manbearpig15

Manbearpig15 wrote:
Thank you. Appreciate the positive response.
He just looked off during that workout. And then today he ran for 50 minutes at about 6:40/mile and only had 163 steps per minute.
He's got wheels and can turn it up when necessary. His 4:10 1500m PR had a 59.64 final 400m.

What's his height? Curious to see what his cadence is during a race.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 1:02pm EDT

re: Manbearpig15

Manbearpig15 wrote:
high school xc coach wrote:
fwiw, I've found SPM to be very accurate on my watch while im running, but WAY off when I am walking.
is this the first time you've looked at his cadence?
He's never been a 180+ steps per minute guy. It seems like lately the number has dropped to a point where I think he could be losing significant distance.
I've talked to him about staying focused on why we do certain things and using the proper intensity when it's needed but I'm not sure how much of it is getting through. He's 15 years old and he thinks he knows everything.

Also the winner of the 15-16 year old 3000 at 2022 AAU indoors was not the 14 year old champ from 2021.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 1:10pm EDT

re: Manbearpig15

Manbearpig15 wrote:
My kid just ran some 800s today and he supposedly only averaged 173 steps per minute. Should I be concerned or is Strava and Garmin data fairly inaccurate?

What kind of Garmin? Just the watch? If there's a heart rate strap, is it the HRM Pro? A 2:30 800 at a 173 cadence is a little over 6 feet per step. When he runs at 1500m race pace, what's his cadence?

3 years ago 10/13/2022 1:59pm EDT

re: Runner10287

Runner10287 wrote:
Manbearpig15 wrote:
I've been coaching him for eight years. I think we're doing fine. Five national championships and nine time All-American seems like a decent result so far.
As far as cross country coaches at the local school - one doesn't coach weekends and the other is a football coach with an 0-7 football head coaching record that thinks CrossFit training is cross country training. I'm not letting my kid near that. They have one kid at 19 minutes and everyone else is 23+ minutes.
And here is where you out yourself. If you have been coaching him for 8 years with all that success you more than likely know what you’re doing and would know that stride rate isn’t something to stress over.

To get better at coaching you have to constantly be trying to learn.

I have four kids and the oldest is the fastest. So unfortunately he is the guinea pig at times. I would rather ask questions and decide what to do on the information I receive.

My original question was if I should trust the accuracy of his Garmin.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 2:03pm EDT

re: kanny

kanny wrote:
Manbearpig15 wrote:
Thank you. Appreciate the positive response.
He just looked off during that workout. And then today he ran for 50 minutes at about 6:40/mile and only had 163 steps per minute.
He's got wheels and can turn it up when necessary. His 4:10 1500m PR had a 59.64 final 400m.
What's his height? Curious to see what his cadence is during a race.

5'8. Was at least 6 inches shorter 18 months ago. Growth spurt was nasty last year.

Last two races his cadence was 174 and 177. The 174 was the 4K course at Van Cortlandt Park.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 2:10pm EDT

re: Runner10287

Runner10287 wrote:
Manbearpig15 wrote:
He's never been a 180+ steps per minute guy. It seems like lately the number has dropped to a point where I think he could be losing significant distance.
I've talked to him about staying focused on why we do certain things and using the proper intensity when it's needed but I'm not sure how much of it is getting through. He's 15 years old and he thinks he knows everything.
Also the winner of the 15-16 year old 3000 at 2022 AAU indoors was not the 14 year old champ from 2021.

Well you can't read. But I'll bet your mom's left nut that the 2021 AAU Indoor 14 year old boy 1500m and 3000m winner is also the 2022 USATF Indoor 15-16 3000m winner.

Didn't get to run 2022 AAU indoor because the family got hit with COVID two weeks before.

The AAU videos are on Flotrack and the USATF race is on USATF.tv.

3 years ago 10/13/2022 2:14pm EDT

re: kanny

kanny wrote:
Manbearpig15 wrote:
My kid just ran some 800s today and he supposedly only averaged 173 steps per minute. Should I be concerned or is Strava and Garmin data fairly inaccurate?
What kind of Garmin? Just the watch? If there's a heart rate strap, is it the HRM Pro? A 2:30 800 at a 173 cadence is a little over 6 feet per step. When he runs at 1500m race pace, what's his cadence?

Garmin 230 without a heart rate strap.

I have no idea what his cadence is during a 1500m. It probably fluctuates because he's a sit and kick guy.

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