She is a minute faster on time. Bikila obviously didn't train. No one did in those days. They just sat around, smoked and went and ran a marathon. That can be the only reason why women are now as fast as the best men were. Or maybe there's another reason ..
She is a minute faster on time. Bikila obviously didn't train. No one did in those days. They just sat around, smoked and went and ran a marathon. That can be the only reason why women are now as fast as the best men were. Or maybe there's another reason ..
Yup better pre-race warmups
I guess Joan and even Paula's pre-race warm ups were not as good as those of a present-day Kenyan.
She is a minute faster on time. Bikila obviously didn't train. No one did in those days. They just sat around, smoked and went and ran a marathon. That can be the only reason why women are now as fast as the best men were. Or maybe there's another reason ..
Yes, there is another reason.
Unlike you, training, nutrition, shoes, have evolved since the 1960s.
In the 1960's athletes trained 100mpw and even more. They ate the same food that is available today. (Nutrition is what you eat - not magic pills. Actually, it probably is these days. Peds.) They didn't run in Roman sandals but running shoes. You probably weren't around in the '60's. Running wasn't invented in the last five years.
I have my suspicions about rampant doping but I'll throw out an anecdote and put it into some perspective.
I lived with a Kenyan guy in the late 90s who ended up running 2:08 high at a major marathon that is one of the fast courses where a record is possible. At the time the world record was 2:06:50, so he was legit, but he was never a big name. He had very modest track PRs (I don't know exactly but lets say 13:50 and 28:45, maybe not even under 14:00 for 5000m). I'm sure with track focused work, he could have gone quite a bit faster but all he really did was a lot of mileage. I think most would say his training wasn't good (obviously it led to good results but was missing a lot of the key elements of things people do today).
1000% this guy was clean, and would never dope. It wouldn't enter his mind. I believe that with todays shoes, and with a professional coach and todays training methods, he would almost certainly be a 2:04:00 or 2:05:00 guy.
Can I believe that someone can run 3:00 faster than that and still be clean? Maybe, maybe not. But I can believe 2:03 - 2:04 clean.
The real question we should be asking is why Americans are still struggling to break 2:10 when the rest of the world is 5:00 faster. If it was only the Kenyans and Ethiopians (mostly it is) I'd think drugs could be a big factor. But the Japanese are killing it too. Did the Japanese suddenly start becoming a drug suspicious nation or did something change in marathoning?
American track times are WAY better than in the late 90s but we still have weak marathon times and this should really be explored more. I actually think Mantz's debut time was poor and I'm surprised he positive split. The guy has run 27:25 and 13:10. I expect he'll improve a lot but...
Looking at the Chicago marathon Wikipedia page and saw that the top US male in 2009 ran a 2:16 and she would've out right won the first three editions of the race. And quite a few years where she would've just been a few seconds away from the top US male runner.
It was +80F and humid that year. So..... Heat Doping Super Shoes
I have my suspicions about rampant doping but I'll throw out an anecdote and put it into some perspective.
I lived with a Kenyan guy in the late 90s who ended up running 2:08 high at a major marathon that is one of the fast courses where a record is possible. At the time the world record was 2:06:50, so he was legit, but he was never a big name. He had very modest track PRs (I don't know exactly but lets say 13:50 and 28:45, maybe not even under 14:00 for 5000m). I'm sure with track focused work, he could have gone quite a bit faster but all he really did was a lot of mileage. I think most would say his training wasn't good (obviously it led to good results but was missing a lot of the key elements of things people do today).
1000% this guy was clean, and would never dope. It wouldn't enter his mind. I believe that with todays shoes, and with a professional coach and todays training methods, he would almost certainly be a 2:04:00 or 2:05:00 guy.
Can I believe that someone can run 3:00 faster than that and still be clean? Maybe, maybe not. But I can believe 2:03 - 2:04 clean.
The real question we should be asking is why Americans are still struggling to break 2:10 when the rest of the world is 5:00 faster. If it was only the Kenyans and Ethiopians (mostly it is) I'd think drugs could be a big factor. But the Japanese are killing it too. Did the Japanese suddenly start becoming a drug suspicious nation or did something change in marathoning?
American track times are WAY better than in the late 90s but we still have weak marathon times and this should really be explored more. I actually think Mantz's debut time was poor and I'm surprised he positive split. The guy has run 27:25 and 13:10. I expect he'll improve a lot but...
In an individual sport, when an entire national group shows a dramatic across-the-board improvement you can bet your bottom dollar it's doping. That's certainly been Kenya, (it also was the E Bloc) and is now probably the Japanese.
Looking at the Chicago marathon Wikipedia page and saw that the top US male in 2009 ran a 2:16 and she would've out right won the first three editions of the race. And quite a few years where she would've just been a few seconds away from the top US male runner.
It was +80F and humid that year. So..... Heat Doping Super Shoes
Looking at the Chicago marathon Wikipedia page and saw that the top US male in 2009 ran a 2:16 and she would've out right won the first three editions of the race. And quite a few years where she would've just been a few seconds away from the top US male runner.
It was +80F and humid that year. So..... Heat Doping Super Shoes
She would have run 2:24/25 in 2009 conditions
Actually, I see you included doping as a factor. You may be right. It could account for the better part of 10 minutes.
I have my suspicions about rampant doping but I'll throw out an anecdote and put it into some perspective.
I lived with a Kenyan guy in the late 90s who ended up running 2:08 high at a major marathon that is one of the fast courses where a record is possible. At the time the world record was 2:06:50, so he was legit, but he was never a big name. He had very modest track PRs (I don't know exactly but lets say 13:50 and 28:45, maybe not even under 14:00 for 5000m). I'm sure with track focused work, he could have gone quite a bit faster but all he really did was a lot of mileage. I think most would say his training wasn't good (obviously it led to good results but was missing a lot of the key elements of things people do today).
1000% this guy was clean, and would never dope. It wouldn't enter his mind. I believe that with todays shoes, and with a professional coach and todays training methods, he would almost certainly be a 2:04:00 or 2:05:00 guy.
Can I believe that someone can run 3:00 faster than that and still be clean? Maybe, maybe not. But I can believe 2:03 - 2:04 clean.
The real question we should be asking is why Americans are still struggling to break 2:10 when the rest of the world is 5:00 faster. If it was only the Kenyans and Ethiopians (mostly it is) I'd think drugs could be a big factor. But the Japanese are killing it too. Did the Japanese suddenly start becoming a drug suspicious nation or did something change in marathoning?
American track times are WAY better than in the late 90s but we still have weak marathon times and this should really be explored more. I actually think Mantz's debut time was poor and I'm surprised he positive split. The guy has run 27:25 and 13:10. I expect he'll improve a lot but...
In an individual sport, when an entire national group shows a dramatic across-the-board improvement you can bet your bottom dollar it's doping. That's certainly been Kenya, (it also was the E Bloc) and is now probably the Japanese.
Possibly, but I still contend that I think a person can go 2:03 clean. Can a person go 2:01 clean? I don't know.
In an individual sport, when an entire national group shows a dramatic across-the-board improvement you can bet your bottom dollar it's doping. That's certainly been Kenya, (it also was the E Bloc) and is now probably the Japanese.
Possibly, but I still contend that I think a person can go 2:03 clean. Can a person go 2:01 clean? I don't know.
Sadly, doping is so rampant and has so distorted athletic achievement we don't know what a top runner could run clean now.
Possibly, but I still contend that I think a person can go 2:03 clean. Can a person go 2:01 clean? I don't know.
Well, drug cheat Salazar for example said that doping gives you two minutes in the marathon.
Going with that: if people can run 2:03 clean, they can run 2:01 dirty. In turn, since people did run 2:01, people can run 2:03 clean.
If people can run 2:01 clean, they can run 1:59 dirty. Then I'd wonder why only two people ran 2:01, and no one faster. Probably because talented people don't dope, or something.
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