there are obviously gradations in how easy you can run so you are obviously wrong.
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malmo wrote:
Weird take wrote:
Ironic: incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result
From your hypothesis then the same runner will feel equally refreshed and energetic on an easy run following a 80 mile week as after a 140 mile week. I’d love to see the evidence for that.
You still don't know what irony is, Alanis. But ill play anyway.There is no "incongruity" here. The expected result is exactly what I said it would be. There is nothing ironic about that.
Another red herring. Bravo.
The pace of the easy runs are the same regardless of the overall training load.That pace has nothing to do with the accumulated fatigue of the two different training loads. The pace of those easy days are the same.. "Easy" is easy. Its not difficult to understand.
The evidence is in my decades of experience and in my training logs and the logs of my peers. I'll provide specifics of you insist.
Get some rest. You have an easy day tomorrow.
“Easy” is an effort level, not a pace.
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malmo wrote:
Weird take wrote:
Ironic: incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result
From your hypothesis then the same runner will feel equally refreshed and energetic on an easy run following a 80 mile week as after a 140 mile week. I’d love to see the evidence for that.
You still don't know what irony is, Alanis. But ill play anyway.There is no "incongruity" here. The expected result is exactly what I said it would be. There is nothing ironic about that.
Another red herring. Bravo.
The pace of the easy runs are the same regardless of the overall training load.That pace has nothing to do with the accumulated fatigue of the two different training loads. The pace of those easy days are the same.. "Easy" is easy. Its not difficult to understand.
The evidence is in my decades of experience and in my training logs and the logs of my peers. I'll provide specifics of you insist.
Get some rest. You have an easy day tomorrow.
Hey, so here’s the issue. You’re providing anecdotal evidence (sample size = 1), which is contrary to the evidence largely provided by the running community. Let’s assume that you didn’t make any errors (run a harder pace because, in your mind, you gotta run that pace). It might have worked for you, but that’s not generalizable anymore than it is for you to proclaim that because you ran a 3:40 1500, anyone easily can. It also doesn’t make much logical sense. Whether I run 20 miles the day before or have a difficult workout, I feel a little more sluggish on my easy runs the next day.
If memory serves, you have also insisted that because you ran healthier on a hard surface that it’s better than trails. Again, might work for you, but that doesn’t mean it’s a fact that everyone should emulate, given the vast anectdotal evidence of most other runners.
I thought it was ironic that someone who’s been in running for decades would make a take that’s exactly the opposite from what you’d expect, perhaps for effect. (Alanis made a song about a bunch of things that were unfortunate, not ironic).
Lastly, Tuesday is workout day. You should know better! 👻
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Weird take wrote:
malmo wrote:
You still don't know what irony is, Alanis. But ill play anyway.There is no "incongruity" here. The expected result is exactly what I said it would be. There is nothing ironic about that.
Another red herring. Bravo.
The pace of the easy runs are the same regardless of the overall training load.That pace has nothing to do with the accumulated fatigue of the two different training loads. The pace of those easy days are the same.. "Easy" is easy. Its not difficult to understand.
The evidence is in my decades of experience and in my training logs and the logs of my peers. I'll provide specifics of you insist.
Get some rest. You have an easy day tomorrow.
Hey, so here’s the issue. You’re providing anecdotal evidence (sample size = 1), which is contrary to the evidence largely provided by the running community. Let’s assume that you didn’t make any errors (run a harder pace because, in your mind, you gotta run that pace). It might have worked for you, but that’s not generalizable anymore than it is for you to proclaim that because you ran a 3:40 1500, anyone easily can. It also doesn’t make much logical sense. Whether I run 20 miles the day before or have a difficult workout, I feel a little more sluggish on my easy runs the next day.
If memory serves, you have also insisted that because you ran healthier on a hard surface that it’s better than trails. Again, might work for you, but that doesn’t mean it’s a fact that everyone should emulate, given the vast anectdotal evidence of most other runners.
I thought it was ironic that someone who’s been in running for decades would make a take that’s exactly the opposite from what you’d expect, perhaps for effect. (Alanis made a song about a bunch of things that were unfortunate, not ironic).
Lastly, Tuesday is workout day. You should know better! 👻
A lot of people here like to argue with malmo, but he is right. He isn't saying easy pace is a min/mi pace, it's an effort and that effort is the same no matter your mileage. Lydiard said the same thing (basically) by telling athletes to run a given pace over a measured course and then only worry about going that same effort the rest of your base/build up. The speed becomes faster, but it's the same effort. Malmo (and I) firmly believe the more miles you do, the fitter you get, and that offsets the fatigue build up, so usually, with more fatigue + more fitness = same pace (or faster). This is when you're used to the mileage, but it happens pretty quickly if you're going easy, not if you're hammering yourself into the ground. Lydiard also suggested running on the roads vs trails because of the grip, allowing you to run faster and avoid slipping.
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Codename: Sci-Fi wrote:
I am way slower than you (about 16:00 5k last year) and struggle to keep any kind of form when I get to 7:30 pace. Were you able to keep decent form? Did you keep same turnover and shorten stride?
I think I need to get slower training to be faster in workouts but just having a hard time. Any help is appreciated.
Do you "struggle to keep any form" when walking at a relaxed pace of 15-20min/mile, or when brisk walking from 13-15mi/mile?
Do you "struggle to keep any form" when running your 5:10/mi 5K pace, or when cooling down at 6:00 or 6:30/mi pace?
I'd guess the answer is, "No."
Then what is so magically hard about 7:30 pace that you lose all coordination and your form is flailing around all out of control?
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Codename: Sci-Fi wrote:
I am way slower than you (about 16:00 5k last year) and struggle to keep any kind of form when I get to 7:30 pace. Were you able to keep decent form? Did you keep same turnover and shorten stride?
I think I need to get slower training to be faster in workouts but just having a hard time. Any help is appreciated.
With your 16 min 5 k your very best slow easy pace should be around 7:10- 7:20 pace to get best aerob effect .At that pace I guess even your form should be okey. 🧙♂️
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malmo wrote:
Weird take wrote:
Is this supposed to be ironic? Yes, running more miles means you’ll naturally be a little slower on easy days with the same effort. If the load you put yourself through didn’t affect your next run, you could just run all your runs at race pace.
You don't know what ironic means nor do you know running. You do know red herrings fluently.
Easy running is not any different regardless of you level of mileage, that is, unless you are novice runner. For a trained runner easy running is the same at 80, 100 or 140 mpw.
Sorry, this makes absolutely no sense, and furthermore MANY elite runners describe easy miles being slower during very heavy weeks.
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just don't agree wrote:
malmo wrote:
You don't know what ironic means nor do you know running. You do know red herrings fluently.
Easy running is not any different regardless of you level of mileage, that is, unless you are novice runner. For a trained runner easy running is the same at 80, 100 or 140 mpw.
Sorry, this makes absolutely no sense, and furthermore MANY elite runners describe easy miles being slower during very heavy weeks.
It makes perfect sense. Malmo just means that runners should probably not be deliberately running significantly slower paces as means to hit higher mileage. Of course if you're recovering from a tough workout you might run a little slower for a day or two. But specifically planning on running 20-30 seconds per mile slower on easy runs to allow for additional mileage is nonsense. MANY people who don't know much about running do this. If anything, the general trend should be the opposite. Easy pace gets faster as mileage and fitness increase.
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Weird take wrote:
malmo wrote:
You still don't know what irony is, Alanis. But ill play anyway.There is no "incongruity" here. The expected result is exactly what I said it would be. There is nothing ironic about that.
Another red herring. Bravo.
The pace of the easy runs are the same regardless of the overall training load.That pace has nothing to do with the accumulated fatigue of the two different training loads. The pace of those easy days are the same.. "Easy" is easy. Its not difficult to understand.
The evidence is in my decades of experience and in my training logs and the logs of my peers. I'll provide specifics of you insist.
Get some rest. You have an easy day tomorrow.
Hey, so here’s the issue. You’re providing anecdotal evidence (sample size = 1), which is contrary to the evidence largely provided by the running community. Let’s assume that you didn’t make any errors (run a harder pace because, in your mind, you gotta run that pace). It might have worked for you, but that’s not generalizable anymore than it is for you to proclaim that because you ran a 3:40 1500, anyone easily can. It also doesn’t make much logical sense. Whether I run 20 miles the day before or have a difficult workout, I feel a little more sluggish on my easy runs the next day.
If memory serves, you have also insisted that because you ran healthier on a hard surface that it’s better than trails. Again, might work for you, but that doesn’t mean it’s a fact that everyone should emulate, given the vast anectdotal evidence of most other runners.
I thought it was ironic that someone who’s been in running for decades would make a take that’s exactly the opposite from what you’d expect, perhaps for effect. (Alanis made a song about a bunch of things that were unfortunate, not ironic).
Lastly, Tuesday is workout day. You should know better! 👻
1) My 1500 PR has nothing to do with this topic. Again, another red herring.
2) Whether or not you are sluggish the day before a difficult workout has nothing to do with easy pace, it's has everything to do with your level of fitness. Easy isn't a sample size of one -- it's a sample size of everyone.
For me, it was common to run a total of 20 miles the day before college xc country races. That's because I was at a high level of fitness AND I knew how to run easy. The pace of "easy" is easy. Simple. Five or ten miles of easy is still easy.
In summary, college xc season
( w/o, miles, # of easy miles day before, result)9/25 116 8 1st 5 mile XC 24:21.6
10/2 130 20 1st 5 mile XC 24:39.2 CR
10/9 125 18 1st 6 mile XC 29:01 CR
10/16 145 20 1st 5 mile XC 24:01
10/23 130 20 1st 5 mile XC 23:54.7 CR
10/30 103 10 1st 5 mile XC 24:19 CR
11/6 131 20 1st 5 mile XC 24:03
11/13 130 15 1st 10k XC 29:34 CR
11/20 82 9 20th 10k XC 29:073) We do agree on one thing -- the only irony in Alanis Morresette's song "Ironic" is the title.
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"Running faster always burns more energy in a given amount of time than running slower, which means that it’s also associated with a higher perception of effort. But (as previous studies have also found) when you ask someone to run, they don’t automatically choose the easiest possible pace, which would be a painfully slow shuffle. Instead, they pick the most efficient pace, which minimizes energy spent to cover a given distance. My fast-easy-run friends are choosing a pace that’s both objectively and subjectively harder, but nonetheless somehow feels right to them."
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O.P., if you are referring to running form inefficiencies at slower pace I 100% understand.
I was a T&F participant before a XC runner. I was a sprinter before middle distance. I intentionally shortened my stride for injury avoidance. One of my daughters' is going through that now. Working with physiologist(s) to shorten her stride for injury avoidance.
I now walk as much as I run. My feet get torn up with blisters walking at 18 to 21 minutes per mile. I suffer zero blisters running sub-10 minutes per mile pace. I notice that I run with a limp when I run slower than 8 minutes per mile. At my age, all my mileage runs are slower than 8 minutes per mile. I don't look like a real runner and unless I am sprinting or running fast.
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Codename: Sci-Fi wrote:
I am way slower than you (about 16:00 5k last year) and struggle to keep any kind of form when I get to 7:30 pace. Were you able to keep decent form? Did you keep same turnover and shorten stride?
I think I need to get slower training to be faster in workouts but just having a hard time. Any help is appreciated.
The goal was not to run slow. The goal was to recovery and run relaxed. It didn't feel slow to me. So if you're running at a pace that feels awkward, don't keep doing it. Sounds like you might need to go faster.
No GPS or anything. Just go out the door and run. Don't even take a watch. Run your loop at the pace that feels right. Morning runs were often super slow. But sometimes I'd do a 45 minute run 3 minutes faster than the day before.
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Codename: Sci-Fi wrote:
I am way slower than you (about 16:00 5k last year) and struggle to keep any kind of form when I get to 7:30 pace. Were you able to keep decent form? Did you keep same turnover and shorten stride?
I think I need to get slower training to be faster in workouts but just having a hard time. Any help is appreciated.
I am 40 now so 7:30 pace is comfortable. When I was in my 20's most of my runs I did at 6:00 pace or faster. I would do 18 mile long runs at 5:30 pace and by the end of the run I would be close to 4:55 to 5:10 pace. Today A hard tempo run is at 5:50 to 6:15 pace. As you age that 7:30 mile will turn into what a 6:00 mile use to be.
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GettingFasterDude wrote:
Do you "struggle to keep any form" when walking at a relaxed pace of 15-20min/mile, or when brisk walking from 13-15mi/mile?
Do you "struggle to keep any form" when running your 5:10/mi 5K pace, or when cooling down at 6:00 or 6:30/mi pace?
I'd guess the answer is, "No."
Then what is so magically hard about 7:30 pace that you lose all coordination and your form is flailing around all out of control?
It's about purposeful practice. We improve at the things we do repeatedly and work to refine.
Spend time focusing on HOW you are running (as opposed to merely what pace you are running). We put time and energy into learning how to move our best at faster paces; if we refine our stride at the paces we spend the vast majority of our mileage at, we can reduce the risk of injury, improve recovery, and allow you to increase mileage. The shuffle life is learned.
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30 seconds to mars wrote:
He didn't. He ran 7:00 pace.
Also most of this was at 7000 feet of altitude and on Trails but after the fact I think I was going slower than 7. No one had GPS but I think it might have been 7:30 pace+ a lot of the time but that would have reduced my mileage to admit that.
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Here's my anecdotal take, hopefully it helps the OP. I was a 15:45 5000m guy in college and a 4:20 miler in HS. I would not have called myself an 800/1500m type, I was definitely a distance runner, but late 80s early 90s very few people were properly trained. Some HS teammates of mine both ran close to 14:00 in college in well coached programs; these guys never beat me by more than a few seconds at any distance in HS and I frequently beat them. Maybe I just sucked, but I'm pretty sure overtraining was why I never improved after the age of 17.
In college, I had basically one pace, approximately 5:45-6:00, depending on how cooked I was from the accumulated fatigue. I could not maintain high mileage. This was early 90s, nobody would tell you to slow down. Coach would be pissed if you didn't hang with everyone on the run. I got to the point where I was so used to it, I considered 6:00 pace to be easy. Very very occasionally I would run with someone who 'sucked' (usually some non-team person) at maybe 7:30 pace. For me this was very difficult because I am a high stride rate person (probably around 200 back then, even when running slow), and when I ran that slow I felt like I was running in place and it felt jarring to my bones and joints. So I understand what you mean when you think it is hard to do.
Having said that, for sure the easier pace is actually easier on your body, particularly your muscles, and will allow you to put in the volume and build the endurance. If someone had told me this in college (they did), I would never have believed it would work, but it does. If you run easy for awhile, you'll learn how to do it smoothly and it won't feel jarring.
I had one winter season where I was doing 5 mile morning runs with another teammate. If it had just been me I'd have been cranking out 6:00 miles. I felt like I was wasting my time with him running probably 7:30 pace but he was a close friend and he invited himself every day so I couldn't get rid of him. I remember being frustrated that the season was going to be a bust. I ended up dropping 15 seconds off my 3000m PR, the only season I ran any real PRs at high school distances in college. If I wasn't blasting the afternoon runs, I'd probably have run even better.
Most of the rest of the time I was in college, I was massively overtrained. I couldn't run an interval workout anywhere near what I did in high school. Coaches were pissed at me like I was dogging it or like I was some kind of pu$sy. I was simply wrecked muscularly and in the endocrine system. I can only imagine now what kind of improvement I might have seen if I'd been able to run the interval workouts well and improve them over 5 years.
Slow down and you will almost certainly see improvement. But like Malmo said, don't look at the pace, go by the effort. If you don't know, get a heart rate monitor and run your easy days at 70-80 percent max HR. Later you will just have a feel for it.
In my early 30s I got back into running for fitness, discovered letsrun, learned how to do easy runs (used a HR monitor), and started putting in a lot of mileage (70-80) running most of the time easy. I felt great every day, started doing some very good workouts, and was able to sustain the mileage for close to a year. I got significantly more fit, and felt like I'd perhaps be able to run some PRs again. I think at that time, if I'd joined a club and did a season of hard intervals, I might have even been able to PR in the 800. My aerobic endurance was better than it ever had been. I ended up getting a non-running injury that required surgery, had to take time off, then got married and had kids. All I can tell you is that you can get VERY fit running easy.
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hsjhfksjhf wrote:
Here's my anecdotal take, hopefully it helps the OP. I was a 15:45 5000m guy in college and a 4:20 miler in HS. I would not have called myself an 800/1500m type, I was definitely a distance runner, but late 80s early 90s very few people were properly trained. Some HS teammates of mine both ran close to 14:00 in college in well coached programs; these guys never beat me by more than a few seconds at any distance in HS and I frequently beat them. Maybe I just sucked, but I'm pretty sure overtraining was why I never improved after the age of 17.
In college, I had basically one pace, approximately 5:45-6:00, depending on how cooked I was from the accumulated fatigue. I could not maintain high mileage. This was early 90s, nobody would tell you to slow down. Coach would be pissed if you didn't hang with everyone on the run. I got to the point where I was so used to it, I considered 6:00 pace to be easy. Very very occasionally I would run with someone who 'sucked' (usually some non-team person) at maybe 7:30 pace. For me this was very difficult because I am a high stride rate person (probably around 200 back then, even when running slow), and when I ran that slow I felt like I was running in place and it felt jarring to my bones and joints. So I understand what you mean when you think it is hard to do.
Having said that, for sure the easier pace is actually easier on your body, particularly your muscles, and will allow you to put in the volume and build the endurance. If someone had told me this in college (they did), I would never have believed it would work, but it does. If you run easy for awhile, you'll learn how to do it smoothly and it won't feel jarring.
I had one winter season where I was doing 5 mile morning runs with another teammate. If it had just been me I'd have been cranking out 6:00 miles. I felt like I was wasting my time with him running probably 7:30 pace but he was a close friend and he invited himself every day so I couldn't get rid of him. I remember being frustrated that the season was going to be a bust. I ended up dropping 15 seconds off my 3000m PR, the only season I ran any real PRs at high school distances in college. If I wasn't blasting the afternoon runs, I'd probably have run even better.
Most of the rest of the time I was in college, I was massively overtrained. I couldn't run an interval workout anywhere near what I did in high school. Coaches were pissed at me like I was dogging it or like I was some kind of pu$sy. I was simply wrecked muscularly and in the endocrine system. I can only imagine now what kind of improvement I might have seen if I'd been able to run the interval workouts well and improve them over 5 years.
Slow down and you will almost certainly see improvement. But like Malmo said, don't look at the pace, go by the effort. If you don't know, get a heart rate monitor and run your easy days at 70-80 percent max HR. Later you will just have a feel for it.
In my early 30s I got back into running for fitness, discovered letsrun, learned how to do easy runs (used a HR monitor), and started putting in a lot of mileage (70-80) running most of the time easy. I felt great every day, started doing some very good workouts, and was able to sustain the mileage for close to a year. I got significantly more fit, and felt like I'd perhaps be able to run some PRs again. I think at that time, if I'd joined a club and did a season of hard intervals, I might have even been able to PR in the 800. My aerobic endurance was better than it ever had been. I ended up getting a non-running injury that required surgery, had to take time off, then got married and had kids. All I can tell you is that you can get VERY fit running easy.
I was you in college.
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malmo wrote:
Weird take wrote:
Hey, so here’s the issue. You’re providing anecdotal evidence (sample size = 1), which is contrary to the evidence largely provided by the running community. Let’s assume that you didn’t make any errors (run a harder pace because, in your mind, you gotta run that pace). It might have worked for you, but that’s not generalizable anymore than it is for you to proclaim that because you ran a 3:40 1500, anyone easily can. It also doesn’t make much logical sense. Whether I run 20 miles the day before or have a difficult workout, I feel a little more sluggish on my easy runs the next day.
If memory serves, you have also insisted that because you ran healthier on a hard surface that it’s better than trails. Again, might work for you, but that doesn’t mean it’s a fact that everyone should emulate, given the vast anectdotal evidence of most other runners.
I thought it was ironic that someone who’s been in running for decades would make a take that’s exactly the opposite from what you’d expect, perhaps for effect. (Alanis made a song about a bunch of things that were unfortunate, not ironic).
Lastly, Tuesday is workout day. You should know better! 👻
1) My 1500 PR has nothing to do with this topic. Again, another red herring.
2) Whether or not you are sluggish the day before a difficult workout has nothing to do with easy pace, it's has everything to do with your level of fitness. Easy isn't a sample size of one -- it's a sample size of everyone.
For me, it was common to run a total of 20 miles the day before college xc country races. That's because I was at a high level of fitness AND I knew how to run easy. The pace of "easy" is easy. Simple. Five or ten miles of easy is still easy.
In summary, college xc season
( w/o, miles, # of easy miles day before, result)9/25 116 8 1st 5 mile XC 24:21.6
10/2 130 20 1st 5 mile XC 24:39.2 CR
10/9 125 18 1st 6 mile XC 29:01 CR
10/16 145 20 1st 5 mile XC 24:01
10/23 130 20 1st 5 mile XC 23:54.7 CR
10/30 103 10 1st 5 mile XC 24:19 CR
11/6 131 20 1st 5 mile XC 24:03
11/13 130 15 1st 10k XC 29:34 CR
11/20 82 9 20th 10k XC 29:073) We do agree on one thing -- the only irony in Alanis Morresette's song "Ironic" is the title.
Damn, what program had you running that many races on consecutives weekends? That's an absolutely brutal 10 weeks!
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