Does Colin's 3:56 mile destroy the he isn't better than Ritz talk?

Like I’ve seen in so many HS championship races, Ritz’s tactics were to run Webb into the turf. He held back that year during the first mile, but he could have gapped him with front running as well. Ritz was clearly better in XC than Webb.

Leo might disagree with that statement.

I don't think that is necessarily true. Ritz's coach advised him to hold back the first mile and basically go way hard after that. They knew Webb was good in advance, obviously. Ritz had the strength to do that but relaxing and catching Webb by surprise was great strategy. Had he run from the gun, it might have played out differently. Webb did have a dangerous kick.

Ritz ran the same course 6 seconds faster the year before. Webb couldn’t keep up with the front group and finished 35 seconds behind Ritz. I don’t know what Webb could have done with his 3:53 fitness, but Ritz was clearly better in the 2 FL races.

He did get 3rd behind Bekele in World Junior XC so you might have a point there.

It took a long time before he discovered it, but Ritz actually had much better speed than he had thought. It was not until his first season with Salazar that he started running high speed 400m repeats, 56s. That had a very rapid effect. He joined Salazar in May or June, I think, and then ran 12:56/27:22/60:00 that year, and the 10000m was a tactical race in warm conditions at World's and the 60 flat a bronze medal at World half in another tactical race. Up to that point, Ritz had been trained on a lot of miles and 'strength' work. He would have broken 4 in high school on Newbury Park training and run 13:20s (he ran 13:27 at 19 as a freshman). Ritz's junior world xc performance at World's is far greater than most realize here. Bekele was the winner. Ritz was third. Teg was fifth. In 2002, the top non-African world U20 runner was 20th. In 2003, 22nd. In 2004, 17th and 18th. In 2005, Augustine Choge (1:44/3:29/...) was first. The top non-African guy was 20th. He ran 13:37 as an under 20 runner. His name was Galen Rupp. The next guy was Moses Kipsiro, who would go on to edge out Teg (in 12:58 ability) for 3rd at World's in the 5000m. Do not underestimate Ritz's Junior World's performance.

Webb had just done a monster workout before nationals, the kind of workout that was designed to get him ready to break Jim Ryun's mile record. Why he was doing that workout in November is beyond me, but that is why he couldn't go with Ritz after having smashed the course record at FL South in his previous race. They were prioritizing the mile even during xc season. Recall that Webb ran an easy 8:45 to beat a sub-4 guy in Brannen by 14 seconds indoors. Webb wishes he had run an all out 2M that year because he knew he was in shape to break the national record. In that xc race, Ritz wasn't in the shape he was in the next March for World xc. I think he was beatable that day, but Webb was overtrained and Hall was going through a down period due to taking accutane for his face.

Not sure why this comparison is coming up over and over. I guess it's because of the Running Lane race. But we don't see constant threads about Lagat vs Rupp. They were physiologically different types of runner whose best events were different. It is true they overlapped at 5000. That's a distance at which a great 1500 runner can excell; so can a great 10000 runner. Now, it's not as ridiculous as comparing Brazier to Shorter, since they both have decent 5000 PRs, but Rupp was so much better than Lagat at 10000 and up that it's not worth a thread comparing them. Ditto 3000 and down - Lagat is so much better no one's bothered to discuss it.

This debate is similar. (And the physical makeup of the 2 guys may be similar to the 2 mentioned above, also.) You're comparing someone whose best event is probably 1500 or mile to someone whose best events were 5000 to half marathon. Now, I say 'probably' for the youngster since he doesn't seem to race a very wide spectrum of distances. After retirement, maybe we will see he was best suited to something else. My guess (which may not be worth much) is that he IS competing at the ideal distance for his body.

Ritz had a chance to race in peak form over various events. The one caveat I would throw in there is that I don't believe his 10000 PR reflects his fitness at his peak. Keep in mind, his 5000 PR came at a race which was a last-minute decision. He and Al thought there would be a big 10000 with a gang of superstars running fast. That's what the training had been designed for. When that didn't end up happening, they decided on the 5000 which is now lengendary in American running lore.

So, although it is true that Ritz's 5000 PR is objectively better than his 10000, if someone like J Kellog interpolates using his 5000 and HM bests, it would be clear that he should have been capaple of a faster 10000. Why he didn't run one I don't know... But the point still stands: you're comparing a true distance runner with a middle distance runner. Take both of them at 17 or 18 or whatever age - maybe 18-1/2. Over 5000, 10000, and certainly anything longer, Ritz takes it. I don't believe Sahlman even has PRs for any of these. At 800, 1500, or mile, the kid wins. Does Ritz have HS PRs for these mid-D events? Maybe, but they don't come up and nobody talks about them. Sahlman probably wins over 3000. It could be close there.

Wouldn't it be more relevant to compare any of the NP crowd to Webb? Why aren't threads on Colin v. Alan?

Didn't Ritzenhein run 8:41 his junior year in North Carolina?

Also, call me when Sahlman medals at World Cross.

The only thing not fair to Colin is when Ritz medaled at World Junior XC it was held every year instead of two years and no COVID to deal with. So Colin wouldn't get a chance at World Junior XC until next year if he's not to old.

Do any of the kids actually still run world junior cross anymore?

I don't want to take anything away from Ritz's achievement in that race, but Sahlman vs. Ritz in cross country is at the very least debatable. If we air-dropped Sahlman back in 2001 and had him run the same race, he probably would have finished near Ritz.

Heck, Teg was 5th in that race and I think there's no question that Sahlman is a bigger talent than Teg was.

For 5000m super shoes are worth 10to 15 seconds

How was it the worse race possible?

The race was tactical for the top guys, it was perfect for Ritz.

Went through 1600 in 4:24 and 3200 at 8:49. ~ 13:45 pace. Then, when the real racing starting upfront, Ritz was only able to maintain pace while the leaders put 20 seconds on him.

Nothing about even-paced finish in this race indicated any more in the tank.

0 evidence spikes make that much difference. If it was a 15 second difference, 2021 would have been the first year since 1993 not to have a sub 13 5,000m performance.

Whats more likely. You are overstating the spikes impact? Or pro distance running took a massive step backwards last year. Someone should let Barega know he could have run 12:28 in Brussels in 2018.

Ritz has completed his professional running career. Now becoming a top elite coach with Klecker, etc.

Bronze junior XC, Bronze Half Marathon Champs.

Olymipic appearances.

Former American record holder at 5000m. With the advances in shoe tech.

he could have run sub 12:50 at his best.

Will see how these 18 and 19 year old HS kids do. The window of opportunity is smaller than is realized.

Agree 100 percent. I watched the race. Ritz was in a nice group of runners running a perfect pace. But if Ritz had super shoes in 2001 he would have been close to 13:30 if not slightly under

Lex wasn’t hurt earlier this year. It was the other L.Y that was hurt. And he maybe the one breaking the records next year.

I would give Ritz the edge in xc. Colin the edge on the track.

LOL, The Speed advantage C. Sahlman has would NOT give him an advantage over D. Ritz. C. Sahlman would have to run about 12.56 pace for 3 Miles to use that Speed, I have no doubt C. Sahlman will run much faster than Ritz's 12:56.27 in 5-10 Years, but he is not There YET