I ran a similar debt of 2:34 in 2020. At the time I was making a comeback after about 10 years of not racing. I ran about 4x per week with a focus on one threshold or 10k pace session a week and a good quality long run often including some target marathon pace work. The other runs were 1 hour easy. I also cross trained on the bike and in the pool and did strength and conditioning work 2 X per week. My main focus was not to get injured and it worked in that sense. I underperformed a bit ( ran a 32 min 10k in the build up so should have been a bit faster for the marathon) but it was a very windy day running the same loop multiple times. Max Mileage was 60 or so but mostly 45-55.
After that I built up my mileage and started to run 6 X per week and ran sub 15 for 5k in spring 2021. I had a bit of a calf injury then 10 weeks to prepare for my next marathon in fall of 2021) after a couple of months of no running. I kept running 6 X per week but took a similar approach to the first with one threshold session a week (up to 8 X 2 miles) and a decent quality long run alternating between a shorter one of 18 to 22 miles with some marathon pace work and a longer off road hilly one from 20 - 26 miles at a more relaxed pace but still 30 -60 secs per mile faster than easy pace (in terms of effort as hills and off road made times much slower). I also built hill sprints into an easy run once per week. Something like 8*200m hills at 5k effort working down to mile effort. Towards the end of the build up I did a couple of 5k and 10k pace sessions. Mileage in the 10 weeks went something like 20, 30, 46, 57, 53 (half marathon race 70:30), 65, 80, 75, 56, 53 (including marathon race). Ran 2:25. I needed probably another 3-4 weeks to get close to 2:20 I think.
I don't run big mileage due to injury history but I believe you can run a good marathon from a focus on a good quality long run and long threshold sessions with a bit of faster running towards the end of the block. Cross training can be used to add more volume replacing some easy running without much detriment to performance. I place a high emphasis on strength and conditioning to stay injury free as I'm naturally tall and very thin so I need it! I ran 30:45 for 10k later in 2021 so my marathon performance is not as good as the shorter stuff which may be because of low mileage but I believe with a longer build up I could run 2:20 ish and high mileage is not necessary, at least for me.
Should have read 4 X 2 miles as biggest threshold session not 8.
I'd focus on addressing your injuries first. Maybe incorporate a solid core workout routine into your training schedule. Something like 2 to 3 times a week. Maybe do some squats, resistance band work for the hip abductors/adductors, side planks, lunges, renegade rows etc. Then after you can stay injury free for a month or two transition to ramping up running volume/intensity.
The bigger the goal, the greater the amount of work. If you want different results, you're going to have to alter your training
What are your short race PRs and when were those set? Same for the OP. 5k/10k?
Alan
5k: 15:52 post marathon debut Nov 2019
10k: 33:14 March 2019
Kind of what I was trying to get at. I came to running through the marathon & made huge strides right away. In my head, if I could go from 3 hours to 2:50 to 2:40 then sub-2:20 would be around the corner. But I got stuck running the marathon in the high 2:30s/low 2:40s off of 80-100+ miles/week. 6:00 pace felt routine but I was horrible at the 5k & really plateaued. I was training like an elite marathoner to some extent & getting really good at running to my current fitness but I wasn't getting any faster at the distance. I think the pandemic helped me reset a bit. I focused on shorter distances & recently ran a big half marathon PB after 3 years of not seeing any improvement there. Now I think I can give 2:30 a go in a dedicated block.
New Haven 20k is a great race with great competition. Only problems are that it could be hot/humid & where it comes in your build (might be a day to run marathon pace on an honest course). I think you would do well to spend some time working on your 5k/10k. Start with 5:00-flat for 5k & a 10k closer to 32:00. Gonna need to keep going from there. I think what myself & others are saying is that you can run the marathon all you want but sub-2:20 isn't possible until you're at least able to go 15/31/67-68.
I don't think you're out of line to share your long term goal & to commit to the process over the next several years. It could be possible. It's just not going to happen without more speed.
I'm also 29 and I debuted in fall 2017 with a 2:43, and recently ran 2:22 this year. So the jump you are looking for is certainly possible, though might take longer than 2024, as you have mentioned.
Key has been consistent mileage, though I will say that I had some inconsistencies in 2019 and 2020, but I really locked in throughout 2021.
Set intermittent, attainable goals. Stay healthy and churn out the miles on a daily basis, and focus on feel. Those days will turn to weeks, and those weeks will turn to months, and those months will turn to years...and a big breakthrough can and should happen down the road. You need to find a way to stay healthy though, and need to find what works for you. It may be PT, stretching more frequently, dietary changes, more sleep, etc. But it can be done.
What were your other PRs? Like others have said, it’s not so much the jump from 2:34-2:20 on its own that seems unrealistic. The 1/2 pr of 1:12 doesn’t indicate being very close to sub 2:20
I'm also 29 and I debuted in fall 2017 with a 2:43, and recently ran 2:22 this year. So the jump you are looking for is certainly possible, though might take longer than 2024, as you have mentioned.
Key has been consistent mileage, though I will say that I had some inconsistencies in 2019 and 2020, but I really locked in throughout 2021.
Set intermittent, attainable goals. Stay healthy and churn out the miles on a daily basis, and focus on feel. Those days will turn to weeks, and those weeks will turn to months, and those months will turn to years...and a big breakthrough can and should happen down the road. You need to find a way to stay healthy though, and need to find what works for you. It may be PT, stretching more frequently, dietary changes, more sleep, etc. But it can be done.
What were your other PRs? Like others have said, it’s not so much the jump from 2:34-2:20 on its own that seems unrealistic. The 1/2 pr of 1:12 doesn’t indicate being very close to sub 2:20
1:10 half March 2021, 1:08 half this year
14:51 5k in 2014, senior year of college
3 years essentially completely off running from summer 2014-summer 2017
Kind of what I was trying to get at. I came to running through the marathon & made huge strides right away. In my head, if I could go from 3 hours to 2:50 to 2:40 then sub-2:20 would be around the corner. But I got stuck running the marathon in the high 2:30s/low 2:40s off of 80-100+ miles/week. 6:00 pace felt routine but I was horrible at the 5k & really plateaued. I was training like an elite marathoner to some extent & getting really good at running to my current fitness but I wasn't getting any faster at the distance. I think the pandemic helped me reset a bit. I focused on shorter distances & recently ran a big half marathon PB after 3 years of not seeing any improvement there. Now I think I can give 2:30 a go in a dedicated block.
New Haven 20k is a great race with great competition. Only problems are that it could be hot/humid & where it comes in your build (might be a day to run marathon pace on an honest course). I think you would do well to spend some time working on your 5k/10k. Start with 5:00-flat for 5k & a 10k closer to 32:00. Gonna need to keep going from there. I think what myself & others are saying is that you can run the marathon all you want but sub-2:20 isn't possible until you're at least able to go 15/31/67-68.
I don't think you're out of line to share your long term goal & to commit to the process over the next several years. It could be possible. It's just not going to happen without more speed.
Yeah I was trying to do that this spring season and was close to being in Pr shape for 10k, but I got a stress reaction. So I’m gonna focus on 5k-10k in the next spring.
Ok thanks for the tip on New Haven. I don’t have a choice, but to run that race. I was planning to run Copenhagen half, but my online MBA orientation is that weekend. What I could do is run workouts or runs at hottest time of the day. I do think despite my 10k Pr being slow, I have a 1:11 in me. Just need to go out in 33:45 for first 10k.
I'd focus on addressing your injuries first. Maybe incorporate a solid core workout routine into your training schedule. Something like 2 to 3 times a week. Maybe do some squats, resistance band work for the hip abductors/adductors, side planks, lunges, renegade rows etc. Then after you can stay injury free for a month or two transition to ramping up running volume/intensity.
The bigger the goal, the greater the amount of work. If you want different results, you're going to have to alter your training
Yeah I have strength and conditioning coach, but I think I need to find the right one. Right now, I'm working with a biomechanics specialist and he’ll eventually be in charge of S&C. I will also see PT more during marathon training.
Out of college I ran 1:12 in my first half huge negative split, then 2:31 in my first marathon with a huge negative split. Tried a few more marathons and hovered around 2:30. I then shifted my training to 10k track stuff with 18-20 mile long runs and got my half down to 1:08, then ran 2:25
it might sound counterintuitive but focus on getting the half down and in line with what the marathon equivalent should be before trying again. You can run half’s a ton but not many marathons.
Out of college I ran 1:12 in my first half huge negative split, then 2:31 in my first marathon with a huge negative split. Tried a few more marathons and hovered around 2:30. I then shifted my training to 10k track stuff with 18-20 mile long runs and got my half down to 1:08, then ran 2:25
it might sound counterintuitive but focus on getting the half down and in line with what the marathon equivalent should be before trying again. You can run half’s a ton but not many marathons.
I plan to do that next year since I already signed up for Chicago (ADP).
That sounds great. Yeah, for New Haven, I'm just saying don't tie too much to it. Honest course. Can be hot/humid. If you catch a good day, there will be plenty of competition to run fast, with it being the US Champs (lots of sub-elite men/elite-women to pack up with). I ran in 2019 in gross conditions and knew half marathon effort was basically going to be marathon pace. I ran the same pace for my marathon a month later... So don't worry if the time ends up being slow. Plus it's 20k so you'll have to make a small conversion.
lek243 has the right progression. I would argue that they were never really a 2:43 marathoner. Obviously with the time off after college, that's where they were at but they ran sub-15:00 & had 2:20ish potential all along. Now, refreshed, they ran a half that matched their old 5k PB. Most people who run 2:40-2:45 have a 16-mid 5k PB.
The time went from 2:43 to 2:22 but the speed was always there. You can't make that jump without the potential to do so. At some point, things will stall out around 2:30 if your fastest 5k is around 16:00. You can run 100mpw all you want but it'll be hard to chip away & bring your marathon down.
I'd focus on addressing your injuries first. Maybe incorporate a solid core workout routine into your training schedule. Something like 2 to 3 times a week. Maybe do some squats, resistance band work for the hip abductors/adductors, side planks, lunges, renegade rows etc. Then after you can stay injury free for a month or two transition to ramping up running volume/intensity.
The bigger the goal, the greater the amount of work. If you want different results, you're going to have to alter your training
Yeah I have strength and conditioning coach, but I think I need to find the right one. Right now, I'm working with a biomechanics specialist and he’ll eventually be in charge of S&C. I will also see PT more during marathon training.
You need the expert online coach, the Swede mr JS.He's a great coach and a nice chap. Coached me from a high 2:13 to a win in 2:10 in just three months. He's really a wizard!
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