Attn Hansons or anyone running Hillsdale

What is wrong with it? I'm considering Hillsdale, but I've only heard good things about their coach. Did you run for the team under Lundberg?

???, I don't know about that, Even Irv Ray of Run With the Best fame is a huge fan of Bill Lundberg's.

Scott, we agree on Aufdemberge... total class act, great runner, non-assuming, I always wished he got more press, but people don't seem patient enough to hear what quiet guys have to say, and that is too bad.

I think maybe it sounds as though I am trying to bash the program, but I am not. So he has won tons of GLIAC conference titles and sends a representative contingent to nationals each year... Lundberg IS exactly what Hillsdale would want for a coach. He is a great guy, very outgoing, cares a lot for his team, has a story for every occasion, etc. It's a great deal, and if this is what you want, then you can not do better. Plus, I think there are a lot of dirt roads around that area, so that is nice extra.

If I were looking at where I'd want to run, there are a lot of factors besides running, right? So, you just have to weigh all the pros and cons. If, though, I really wanted to see how good I could get, though, I would not put this on the pro side for Hillsdale. While it would seem that Lundberg, having run as he did for Timmons, would exhort his runners to do even better, it seems this is not the case. The well rounded student (with a de-emphasis towards training to be your best) is just pushed more, and it doesn't take so much to be GLIAC Conference champs time and again or to always be knocking at being an All-American. Many Freshman serious about running can do that. So, IF you are considering going, I would interview him about what he thinks of your goals, about training to get there, about how he devises "the plan" each year, etc. Perhaps it is a great fit for you.

Again, from what I know, Bill is a great guy, so if I sounded negative, forget about it.

I've only briefly met Irv of Run With the Best Fame a couple of times (very briefly). Gauging from their personalities and beliefs, it doesn't surprise me at all that they wholeheartedly endorse each other. It is easy, though, to endorse as a friend, and not be on the same page as far as training is concerned. though. And, theoretically, Bill would go along with Ray (he trained that way himself under Timmons), but he may not train his team in that manner.

I can't really comment on the running program at Hillsdale but I do know that the college has religious underpinnings and is very conservative, which probably narrows the pool of potential students. Also, as I recall the town of Hillsdale is *very* small and the school is really off by itself... it's beautiful but very small, very quiet, and somewhat isolated. I think a student has to be comfortable with that kind of environment to be happy there. I don't believe in choosing a college based solely on its running program to begin with, and I'd certainly never suggest that in the case of Hillsdale. It's a terrific place for students who "fit" that particular environment but would probably be four years of misery for those who don't.

When you reside in a state with University of Michigan, Central Michigan University, Eastern Michigan University, Michigan State University, to a certain extent Western Michigan University and within a two hour drive of Notre Dame- it's going to be tough to turn out a powerhouse distance program year after year, particularly in light of the atmosphere that Hillsdale College offers to its students. It takes a unique individual to attend Hillsdale College. Throw in Division III powerhouse Calvin College and Coach Lundberg has to recruit against 7 very succesful distance programs every year all within two hours of his campus. Add to the fact that Hillsdale College has a bit of a "cult feel" to it and it's easy to see why Coach Lundberg looks like he has underacheived. In all reality, Bill is a wonderful coach and has done about as good a job as anybody could expect when one considers all of the circumstances.

Good points. Also, now Grand Valley and Wayne State are on the rise, so it only makes it tougher. I have always thought Hillsdale and Lundberg have had a solid programs for many years. If you have ever been to a Hillsdale meet, you would never doubt the enery and dedication that Lundberg puts into it.

I want to re-iterate that I agree with all that has been said so far, other than maybe the "cult-feel", but I guess I can see how someone could arrive at that assessment.

Other programs that I would consider would be North Central, or UDMercy. Absolutely, I would never question the "energy" or "dedication", so if these are what you believe are the most important attributes, then Hillsdale is a very viable choice.

It'd appear Bill has made a favorable impression on others by comments here. I'd send my son to run for Bill in a heartbeat if: he wanted to go, could get in and his parents could find a way to finance the deal.

We are, indeed, fortunate in MI to have so many terrific college choices w/fine running programs as well.

I wouldn't. But as a state, MI does well.

I don't think you are doing enough justice to the program. Hillsdale doesn't have a lot of scholarship money to work with, which limits recruiting, especially when they are competing against other schools that can offer more money.

Secondly, the academics at Hillsdale are pretty demanding, this isn't like CU or some such place where you can get away with good grades and do very little school work(Believe me, I have many friends at CU).

As far as "maximizing potential", I think don't think they do too bad a job. Hillsdale's top runner ran 14:27 last year as a sophomore, and he only ran 9:24 in high school. Their second man was a 10:00 HS two miler who ran 30:20 and was the fastest man not to qualify for the DII 10000m. The improvement of freshmen is also quite good: Last year, one freshman who ran at Rockford (you can't accuse him of not being from a good HS program) improved his 5k time by 32 seconds and ran a 30:58 10000m, esssentially doubling his HS 5k PR. I want to point out that this doubling of HS 5k PRs (XC)was also accomplished by Dathan Ritzenhien and Alan Webb, who were running fantastic seasons when they did this. They also got a freshman who hadn't run under 17 minutes in HS, and ran 15:47 his freshman year.

Finally, they finished 11th this year at DII Cross (and only 5 points from 10th) with a team that is only graduating two runners and is otherwise very young.

Thanks for the info, that was a good run down.

hillsdale runner, I respectfully disagree. I guess I must not be explaining myself well. I do not mean to slam your team. I genuinely hope for your and the other guys' success, and I commend you for the good work you done to date.

Now, I would like to address a few of the points you made. First, are you, or are you not on the team? You call yourself Hillsdale runner, but keep using "they"? Maybe you recently graduated from there? Anyway, if you have never been on the team, that might explain why you are not in the know as far as their financial situation. They do not have a lot of "athletic scholarships" for track (does anyone?), but they more than compensate for it through alternative financial aid packages (some loans, but mostly scholarships). They are quite capable of making their costly tuition comparable to what runners would be paying if they went anywhere else. I am assuming you didn't know this instead of intentionally being deceptive. Second, Hillsdale is not very tough academically. Like anywhere else, you get what you put into it. They talk a good game (have always done so) and have seemingly taught you this "skill" well. Afterall, perception is reality. Thirdly, despite having Chippewa friends, you come off as a little conceited when talking down another school. Word to the wise, after you get a job or go to get your graduate, that diploma suddenly becomes about as helpful as that HS diploma was after starting college. You'd be surprised at how people from "lesser" places will perform. I hope you don't have to get your ass kicked too many times to learn this.

Onto the "accomplishments" paragraph. It sounds like the rundown for Hillsdale from any given year. But let me take out a few phrases that describe better than I could the prevailing outlook of the program. "..as a sophomore...he only ran 9:24 in high school...fastest man not to qualify for the DII 10000m...finished 11th this year at DII Cross (and only 5 points from 10th)...team that is otherwise very young." The qualifying statements that you have made are repeated every year. I know it is hard to get away from this as I am sure you're just trying to quantitatively measure, but don't you see the ever so slight lowering of expectations? Again, I hope that is not the case, but I very much suspect it is just as it has been going back several years.

Other than the obvious talents that go to DIs, do you really think that the Hillsdale guys are so much less talented than other guys that choose to go to DIs. And, that, in fact, you are really overachievers? If so, I guess that would say something in regards to 1) the caliber of talent that would choose to go there (low on the totem pole), and 2) the outlook the Hillsdale runners have concerning what they expect from themselves (that they'll never amount to much cause they don't think they have what it takes). I don't believe either of these to be the case. Do you?

One of the original questions was about how Lundberg has solid creds, so he must be a good coach, no? What, if you know, are his main goals from year to year? Does he want to develop the individuals as much as possible, or is it more like to develop enough to win conference, maybe get in the top 10 at DII XC Nats, maybe qualify 3-5 indoors? Does anyone on the team dream? Does Lundberg dream with/for them? I would hope that he sees (or has seen) the potential for many to exceed what he accomplished almost 30yrs ago. When he ran at Kansas, what was he doing to get where he got? Do you guys train similarly, or does he think his guys don't have the talent to work like he did?

Well, if you run for Hillsdale, I like that you've got your team's back. I'm sure that despite the diversity of the team, you are all a close-knit bunch. I am also quite confident that what I am saying is something that has been discussed many a time amongst yourselves. So, with that, don't take this as an attack - it's not. Accept it like you would if it were coming from your 30:20 teammate - as a challenge to the team (himself included) to recallibrate the prevailing thinking a bit and maybe this team will have better success (apparantly, with Aufdemberge being the lone exception) at persuading Lundberg that you can run well.

Interesting thread, but let's not forget that Hillsdale also has a women's team, and their graduates have done well at road races throughout Michigan. No national-class superstars like Aufdemberge (yet), but quite a few solid, consistent runners.

??? is an appropriate name for this guy because he appears to be lost and confused. I wish I could have the minutes of my life back that I spent reading this garbage. It's all a bunch of twisted logic.

The only way to judge a coach and a program is to compare times and achievements before they arrive to their times and achievements in the program. Hillsdale Runner gave you several examples of athletes who have improved at Hillsdale. Somehow you twisted his words into being a sign of some kind of inferiority complex.

Bill Lundberg is a good coach and a great person. He faces tremendous competition for recruits within his state. He coaches at a school with high academic standards, which makes it difficult for him to get many of his recruits into school, then keep them eligible when they arrive. I did not attend Hillsdale, but a former roommate of mine did, and his education there left him well prepared for medical school.

Although Michigan has a deep talent pool of distance runners, the pool is nearly sucked dry by Eastern, Central, and Michigan (who were all in the top 10 of last year's NCAA meet) plus Michigan State (a national qualifier last year) and Western (another solid program.) In addition to being Division I programs, all of these schools (other than Michigan) are much less expensive options than Hillsdale.

Lundberg has done a brilliant job with the talent that he has been able to scrape together. His relative lack of success in recent years can be directly linked to the success of the aforementioned programs. Not everyone can succeed at the same time. There is only so much talent to go around.

???, please, help me. As another poster aptly put it, you infer there is some kind of inferiority complex among members of the men's team. To say stuff like that, you must be 'in the know'. Do tell. Please explain for us, or e mail me separately, specifics about your sentiments.

Lundberg is an okay coach, but he doesn't set his sights high for his athletes. I think that is what ???? is getting at. There are better schools to run for if you are interested in long-term development.

"despite having Chippewa friends, you come off as a little conceited when talking down another school."

Chippewas? I was talking about University of Colorado - Boulder. I think it ranked #1 for least homework last year.

I?m a co-captain on Hillsdale?s team. I agree that ??? makes some good points in general, but I think those things could be said about runners in any program or coach. I feel obligated to take issue with a lot of what he?s said, though, especially with recruits reading this board.

Hillsdale is tougher academically than many of the schools we recruit against. Last year a member of our team was failing some of his classes; he transferred to Eastern Michigan and now has a 4.0. That?s not to say he?s learning less, or he?ll be less prepared after college, or that he isn?t getting a better education, but he has said it is a lot easier there and that he doesn?t work nearly as hard. Everyone I?ve talked to who has transferred?which is not a lot of people, admittedly?says Hillsdale was harder than where they transferred too. Obviously, it?s a lot easier to get into a school like Eastern too.

Secondly, elite runners don?t necessarily make great coaches. Generally, I think it?s beneficial to have an accomplished coach, but in some ways it may even be detrimental: i.e. different athletes respond to training differently, so it isn?t good to have a blind devotion to ?what worked for me?. Granted, Lundberg was a great runner, but that doesn?t mean he should be held to a higher standard than say, the coaches of the teams who got 12th-25th at DII nationals?or the teams that didn?t make it out of their regions for that matter. A coach should only be judged on what he makes of his runners, whether he?s a world record holder or a 10:00 miler.

You also make it sound as if 30 years ago Lundberg became great through some secret training regime, which he is afraid to incorporate here. You seem to know a lot about Hillsdale, so it seems like you should know that Lundberg was a phenomenal talent. He didn?t start running until track season his senior year of high school, where he ran a 1:58 half-mile. Two years later he was running 8:45 for the two-mile. And that improvement didn?t come from training under Kansas? Coach Timmons; his first two years of college were at Jackson Community College, not exactly a hotbed for nurturing distance-running talent. Of course he trained hard, but you have to admit the guy was seriously gifted. I wonder how many thousands of people it would take before you got another 8:45 guy off of one high school season and two years in community college?

And does anyone on the team dream? That question?s a bunch of crap. Does anyone on this forum think 10:00 two-milers can become 30:20 10K guys without dreaming? Do you dream, ???, or whatever your name is? Did you ever dream? If you did, why didn?t you dream 10 seconds faster? Or 15? Or 20? Why didn?t Paul Radcliff dream about a 2:14 at London? Anyone can criticize someone else for not dreaming enough while they?re hiding behind an anonymous screen name. If you know us much about our team and want to help us by challenging us to be better, why are you afraid to say who you are? Presumably, we?d be thankful to hear from you; if you know how to make great runners, why don?t you just tell us? If not, don?t waste our time dreaming up stuff on this message board.

I will say?to the credit of Coach Lundberg and the professors and students I?ve met here?that I dream about running less than I used to, because not only has being at Hillsdale helped me become a better runner, it?s shown me there?s more to dream about than just running. And a diploma from Hillsdale may not help me perform my job better than anyone else, but at least I won?t be anonymously criticizing other people?s programs on Internet message boards.

Steve, well said. Say Hey to coach L for me from scott hubbard! I'd love to hear specifics from ??? about some kind of undercurrent of underachieving.