AverageForFun - I know you were hoping to go faster, but sounds like this was a great experience dealing with a tougher course and big city race logistics, both of which you will also deal with at Boston.
Are there any hillier areas you could possibly drive to like once a week on the weekends, or even bridges with an incline, etc, just to be able to prepare for the hills a bit more?
AFF - Overall, not a bad effort in a big city race...they are tough, and for a number of reasons. I ran the NYC Half years ago, on a different course...the one wherein the hiller portion was in the first half in Central Park. I feel motivated to give you my perspective, as I have seen your type of performance/race strategy over and over again. As one who has run many 13.1s and 26.2s, here is how I see it. First that 5:23 early on is absolute suicide, particularly in a race such substantial distance. It is fine to try for that in the last mile or two, but in mile four, you will be sealing your fate in a half marathon with a mile like that. The 5:49 before it in mile three is also a no-no, in my opinion. I gather you wanted 5:50s, and that is okay, but I would not risk oxygen debt in a 13.1 and play it smartly, more conservatively in the early going. The best races 5k and up are run even or negative, and that is what I think we should all aim for. So, keep away from oxygen debt, and then start to bring the pace down in second half of the race. This is always my strategy. So, in my PR half (1:18:27 at age 50), my average pace was 5:59...and my first mile was 6:03. It was a rolling course, but I know I never got much below 5:48 in any first-half mile, and was able to split 5:45 in my last mile. Will look over my splits again, if you want me to, but most were right around 6:00.
Anyway, you averaged 6:11 for the race, and in that particular scenario I would have been no faster than 6:15 in my first mile, maybe even 6:20. I would have then gotten comfortable with my pace and my surroundings, and then gradually dialed in the pace, aiming to finish 5:xx in the last few miles--and as hard as I can, period. I think you are clearly better than 6:11 pace for the half if you run smartly...probably much better.
Be patient and keep it in control...and run the race like a road racer, which is a lot different than what a track runner does. Patience and control, my friend, go a long way...especially when you have to go a long way.
I mean all of this in the best, most constructive manner, and wish you all the best in your future races.
While many of you won't recognize me because my last meaningful contributions to this thread are now about 3.5 years old, I was a long time regular contributor to this thread.
Just popping in to share with some of the regulars from yesteryear who are still posting (Stonecutter, darkwave, Sub 6, OR, Allen) the latest on my running health.
Unfortunately, the news isn't great. Arthritis in both hips, with the right hip being bone-on-bone.
Thus ends my competitive running career which was anchored by two bright spots - a good D3 college career after walking on without any prior running experience and a nice masters career - separated by almost 20 years of drinking too much and getting fat.
No real regrets, and I could probably still run from time to time if I want to, but I plan on living a pretty active lifestyle later in life, so I think most of my exercise will come from walking, yard work and strength training from now on so that I can preserve my mobility without hip replacement for as long as I can.
Smoove: Sorry to hear this. Well, your attitude is laudable: Celebrate the accomplishments and memories. I hope you will chime in here once in a while -- we miss your wise advice and tales of DIII escapades! Are you still coaching?
Best of luck and happiness going forward.
Smoove - Great to hear from you but I wish the news were better. I wish you the very best in whatever you choose to pursue. Will draw upon Smoovian vibes and inspiration in my next marathon, which is in 12 days. You are an RR&T legend…
Me back, had to take a few days off due to achilles issues so I missed our season opener. Ready to open in the steeple this friday though! Excited to see how it goes.
Mon - 8 Miles @ 6:45
Tues - 3.5 WU/CD, 1200/400-1k/600-800/800-1200/400-4x400 (3:45-67-3:05-1:43-2:27-2:23-3:44-67-68-68-72-68) got work adjusted, first rough one in a long time.
Wed - 10 Miles @
Thurs - 5.5 Easy + 9 x 300 with every other rep over hurdles (average 55), light speed day
Fri - 2 WU, 2 x 1k (3:03-3:00) + 500 (1:21), cut workout due to achilles, could've kept going but I was limping through the reps
Sat - off (achilles)
Sun - off ((achilles)
Miles: 39
Did 8 miles today, got some new shoes and the weekend rest made it feel much better, I think that I will be good to go!
Jmar - there is the ravenel bridge but its an hour drive for me.
Outside - that 5:23 definetly sealed my fate. I knew I could make up a bit of time on whatever downhill I did have halfway through but that was too much and I did not pace that race at all like I needed to. Training had me thinking between all the workouts that a 5:50 average or faster was realistic, with lots of work done in the 5:4x ranges both indoors on a treadmill and outside. I honestly got a little ahead of myself and that goal wasn't quite there yet. Like you said, if I'd ran it a bit smarter I could have done better. NY wasn't the flat record course like I'd raced in November and I'm ready to take that as a learning experience.
I really appreciate your feedback, especially with hearing that the first mile was that much slower than the majority of your miles. Time to recheck myself and keep having fun doing this.
Easy miles for a majority of this week and a lot of marathon paced miles moving forward before Boston. Hopefully I don't get too geeked out at that, especially since I had lots of fangirl and newbie moments just seeing all the people at Prospect Park.
Male, 29, 6'0", 130 lbs.
PRs: 3K: 8:40.12 (2022) 5K: 15:18 (indoors) (2021), 8K: 25:16 (2021), Half Marathon: 69:22 (2022), Marathon: 2:30:25 (2019)
Goal races: Boston Marathon,
Goal: Boston Marathon: 2:20 mid/finally break 2:30
M: Off
T: 8 miles @ 7:21 avg
W: 2 mile warmup, 6 x 2 min on @ 5:07 avg/30 second jog recovery, 5K down
TH: 6 miles @ 7:02 avg
F: 7.45 @ 7:33 avg
S: 4.67 miles @ 7:29 avg
Sunday: 1 mile warmup @ 10:04 pace, NYC Half: 69:22
Total: 48.48 Miles
Notes:
Prerace: I had been having horrible heel issues for the past week. My friend that I was staying with let me use her scraper tool and it worked wonders for me. I think it was just an issue with tight calves but as I used it more and more on Friday and Saturday I felt much better.
Race Day:
Early wake up and train ride out to the start. Had no issues getting there which definitely calmed my nerves. The corral is where the issues started to happen. There was no separation between the AA and A corral members. I pushed my way up to the front of my corral and still had people from the A corral trying to put themselves right on the line. It was really frustrating but I figured I'd only have to get around a couple people before I could settle in.
Race Start:
The elites were about 20 meters ahead of us on the start line with us behind a rope. Gun goes off and they drop the rope for us. Immediately a staff member runs in from of our corral yelling that we had to wait 2 minutes. Absolute confusion in our corral as we try to reset our watches. 20 seconds later he says, go go and we're racing I guess. My watch didn't start for about 15 meters and I had no time to reset satellites so this was gonna be an interesting first mile.
Miles 1-4: (5:1?, 5:06, 5:10, 5:00)
In the craziness of the start I find myself being separated from the buddy I was trying to run with. With hills coming in the middle miles I got really cautious and backed off as much as I could. Last thing I needed was ripping a sub 5 mile at mile one. First hill at a half mile was tough but I just focused on staying calm and not over extending myself early. I have no idea what I went through the first mile in but it was most likely just under 5:20. I cruised downhill trying to not get too excited and took the hairpin hard almost coming to a dead stop. Second mile was right where I needed to be, 5:06 as we crested a slight uphill section and proceeded to a gradual downhill section heading to the base of the bridge. I noticed a guy basically matching my stride just behind me and moved over to talk to him for a second. The guys in front of us were slowly coming back to us. Even this early, our decision to not take it out as hard may have paid off.
Miles 5-8: (5:08, 5:04, 5:06, 5:10)
We hit the bridge pretty hard and started to make a move on one of the elites. I felt like I had made a big move here and I was the front of my pack, getting smacked by the wind. As we crested the bridge and went through the downhill I realized I was not alone. A couple guys blazed right past me as we moved down the bridge and I attempted to stay in contact at this point. Crossed through 10K at 32:40, basically equaling the opening 5K split. I stayed pretty strong over the next 2 miles and despite being confused by each mile mark showing a time that was 20 seconds off from what I was running, this was going fairly well. Early on in the race I had made the decision to just race. The course and the windy conditions and lack of pacing groups made it tough to get into any rhythm. So I just focused on the next guy ahead and trying not to let anyone pass me.
Miles 9-11: (5:21, 5:23, 5:31)
As we ran on the lonely FDR, I felt myself start to falter. The quiet highway and the small uphills had begun to take its toll on my muscles. A lingering glute issue from last fall decided to start creeping back up and as each mile passed I just focused on trying to hold on. The time I was looking for was definitely out of reach at this point and I still had a tough couple sections to go. Even at this pace I had an opportunity to PR and no one was really moving past me. If anything I was starting to catch people who were also on the pain train. The run up Broadway was the darkest point for me. While I felt I was running within' myself, my muscles were not having it. I was this far in though so at the very least I'd try to finish strong.
Miles 12-finish: (4:50, 5:13)
It was at this point that the racing really started. A guy I had been running back and forth with over the last couple miles started putting his foot on the gas and I started to move with him. To my surprise I got a second wind and he wasn't gapping me. Mile 12 buzzed and to my surprise it was a 4:50. This pumped me up. I had no idea what I was on pace to run but with some people coming back and another elite bib within striking distance I decided to make my move for home. With 800 to go I charged up the last uphill section and caught up to the elite guy I'd been chasing with the finish line in site. He took one look at me, and kicked it in, completely leaving me in the dust. Crossed the finish line and while it was not the time I wanted I was happy to come away with a PR. 43rd overall in a field of over 22K is also pretty cool
Overall thoughts:
I'm happy with this result and looking at the GAP paces definitely gives me more confidence that I have a big one coming and that I'm ft. 3 miles basically almost sealed my fate but the last 2 salvaged it. I'd happily come back to this race as it's the perfect tuneup ahead of Boston next month.
AFF - So glad that you have responded with some comments, as I was not quite sure how you might take my feedback/suggestions. Indeed, it is a learning experience, and I have had many of them. Mostly we have to tune in to our bodies and accurately discern what we are being given on race day...
Slow Miles, nice workout.
beers, solid race.
notarobot, strong week.
Sub 6:00, I like the tempo work.
AFF, hang that head high, good progress toward Boston.
Smoove = 🐐
outsiderunner wrote:
AFF - Overall, not a bad effort in a big city race...they are tough, and for a number of reasons. I ran the NYC Half years ago, on a different course...the one wherein the hiller portion was in the first half in Central Park. I feel motivated to give you my perspective, as I have seen your type of performance/race strategy over and over again. As one who has run many 13.1s and 26.2s, here is how I see it. First that 5:23 early on is absolute suicide, particularly in a race such substantial distance. It is fine to try for that in the last mile or two, but in mile four, you will be sealing your fate in a half marathon with a mile like that. The 5:49 before it in mile three is also a no-no, in my opinion. I gather you wanted 5:50s, and that is okay, but I would not risk oxygen debt in a 13.1 and play it smartly, more conservatively in the early going. The best races 5k and up are run even or negative, and that is what I think we should all aim for. So, keep away from oxygen debt, and then start to bring the pace down in second half of the race. This is always my strategy. So, in my PR half (1:18:27 at age 50), my average pace was 5:59...and my first mile was 6:03. It was a rolling course, but I know I never got much below 5:48 in any first-half mile, and was able to split 5:45 in my last mile. Will look over my splits again, if you want me to, but most were right around 6:00.
Anyway, you averaged 6:11 for the race, and in that particular scenario I would have been no faster than 6:15 in my first mile, maybe even 6:20. I would have then gotten comfortable with my pace and my surroundings, and then gradually dialed in the pace, aiming to finish 5:xx in the last few miles--and as hard as I can, period. I think you are clearly better than 6:11 pace for the half if you run smartly...probably much better.
Be patient and keep it in control...and run the race like a road racer, which is a lot different than what a track runner does. Patience and control, my friend, go a long way...especially when you have to go a long way.
I mean all of this in the best, most constructive manner, and wish you all the best in your future races.
Definitely wanted to echo this. As you begin to move up to larger races you'll find more and more that your starts are going to be chaotic. The same is going to happen at Boston. Understand the course you're racing and stay level headed. More often than not, things will not go to plan, whether it's a tougher course than you expected, weather, or just general race day shenanigans. You're not going to find yourself PRing in the shorter distances during your halfs/fulls much longer as you grow into this, the next step is being able to adjust to your race conditions and competition. Especially when you start moving into the low 2:30's, you'll find yourself going away from loop courses getting people to PR where you can control everything.
Beers and Outside - Thank you guys for this insight. I'm looking forward to being able to grow, fail, and fight more as I continue enjoying the trails of miles and miles of trials. That's the next step to grow in, learning to adjust to tougher conditions and experiencing what racing is instead of going to races.
Hey all, just chiming in briefly to express appreciation for the detailed race reports. Absolutely love reading these, just haven't had time to offer any feedback. Just a sincere "thank you"!
OR -- Because I particularly follow your training (as a fellow M50+), gotta say your progression runs were astounding last week. Couldn't believe those closing mile times!
darkwave -- I've also been following your saga. Happy to see that you seem to be heading back on course. And thank you for the thoughts.
Smoove. Really sorry to hear about this. I have learned a ton from you simply by stalking old threads and reading your input. Much respect and sincere appreciation for you willingness to share your training and insights.
I am going to be trying the "Roy Moore" tomorrow morning (well a modified version for a mortal) tomorrow. If I don't post next week it's because I didn't make it.
Allen - I very much appreciate the feedback, especially as I get closer to the race. As the song says, it’s been a long time since I rock and rolled, and so I have some butterflies about the race. Speaking of rocking and rolling and of closing paces, check out what I got back from a short while ago…
6.76 at 6:27 overall…6:58, 6:46, 6:37, 6:32, 6:13.2, 6:05.3, 4:25.4…in nice control.
On a massive high now…
Last long run tomorrow….
Get it my friend, you got it
AFF - Thanks, man. I am really starting to believe.
GNR1 wrote:
Smoove = 🐐
🍻
Darkwave - Thanks again for the bloodwork information
Male, 28, 6’4”, 146 lbs
PRs: 4:54 Mile, 16:56 5k
Goals - Bounce back from funk
Races - 4/2 track 5k
Mn - Off (first since 11/29)
Tu - 8.25 @ 7:00s
Wd - 8.25 @ 7:05s
Th - 10 @ 6:40s
Fr - 4800 4x200 + WU/WD = 9
Sa - 9 @ 7:10s
Su - 8 @ 7:40s
Total - 53
Fr - 17:44 36 36 37 36
General - With Friday's workout, and yesterdays I guess I am back from a month+ of feeling bad. Going to increase mileage to 70-80mpw and try to sign up for some races.