HS Girl track recruiting getting more serious - any insider insights this year Ivies / NESCAC

Just under 11:00 for the 3200, and a mid-18's PR at Woodward / Fresno for CA State CC Championships.

Thanks, I'll make sure she doesn't do anything rash!

Super, thanks for the helpful advice. We definitely need to get her out to see these schools and meet the teams.

Wow, I wasn't clear exactly how the pre-read / commitment / EA process works. Is there early commitment pressure, or do most people wait til the EA timeframe? Are they effectively filling up their rosters over the summer on verbals?

As a CA dad there is the added benefit of being able to easily attend SCIAC meets! Given your daughter’s performance levels, she should take a long hard look at CMS and PP. Great schools and very solid D3 distance programs. At the moment CMS is a bit stronger than PP on the women’s side, but maybe your daughter will help tip the scales for PP!! The PP men are super strong. They just had sixteen runners under 15 min for 5K in an early season meet. The distance running environment throughout the 5Cs is strong.

My daughter's (sub-5:0x 1600 / 1500 SAT) experience was similar to that of Nesac Dad's daughter: she was given an academic pre-read by two ivies and other high academic D1s in June 2021, and asked how soon she wanted to make a decision. We did unofficial visits that same month to her top 5 schools, officials in Aug/Sept 2021, and gave her verbal in Sept 2021. She ultimately decided against the ivies because she felt the athlete support/overall experience would be better elsewhere and she signed with a high academic D1. I'd encourage unofficial visits to help with discernment ahead of the senior year. Best of luck to your daughter...

Sub 5 v 5.0x is a fairly bright line with respect to recruiting (assuming other times are commensurate). As a junior my daughter was a 5.05 runner (off a very low mileage and non super intense HS training program) but more than a few D1/Ivy programs made it clear that she would need to break 5 to be strongly considered. At least in 2019, the top D3 programs were still very interested at this slower performance level.

My daughter ran 4:55 as a junior and had a 35 ACT. She was recruited by several Ivies but decided on our state school due to cost. Ivies were $75K while we are paying about $4K per year instead.

I can't say how it works with every school or coach, but after the pre read came back positive, my child basically gave a verbal commitment to the coach and they gave a verbal commitment for full support on the application as long as we did early decision. Its non binding on either side and both sides can technically back out, so there has to be some level of trust. You can play the game and make verbal commitments to multiple schools over the summer, but in the end, you can only apply ED to 1 school come fall. And these coaches do talk a bit, so be somewhat careful on committing to multiple programs. If she goes Nescac, she will see these coaches on a regular basis at meets and the last thing you want is the uncomfortable feeling of them being upset you made a commitment and then backed out. Also, in theory you are taking someone else's spot which isn't cool either.
As for ED pressure, I would say it somewhat varies, but in general, every commitment a coach made was followed up with them expecting you to go the ED route. If your child is a top recruit, they will likely still find a home in regular decision, but the Nescac schools only get so many tips. If they are all used up in ED, then the chance a coach can offer support diminishes greatly in the regular decision rounds. Of course every year varies, and I know there have been some ED recruits that back out at the last minute and open up a slot for a RD applicants as well. But in general, your chances are better going ED. Which means doing unofficial visits and trying to get a good idea of what your child likes over the next few months. I'm certainly not trying to rush you, and your daughter does have some time, But obviously the more you can get done earlier the better.

If your daughter is interested in the Nescac schools, the following website covers XCTF for the Nescac+.

https://trackyack.com

You can get a pretty good idea on the programs by reading the articles. There is also information on coach departures, and getting a sense of who has good runners and when they will graduate.

If you have any specific questions, you can email me at nescacdad@gmail.com and I’d be happy to discuss our experience or offer any assistance I can.

How is she doing, and is she having a good experience?

It is fine. Team is average and school is okay. She does well academically.

You should look at the Patriot League. It would be a much better fit for your daughter. Equivalent level of academics and a better running experience. She'll get opportunities to race right away, which is more than many Ivy League schools have been able to offer. She will be a big fish in a small pond in D3 and have nobody to train with. Ivy League she will be a little fish in a big pond. Patriot League is just right.

Smart man, smart daughter. It is now $80,000 per year, and no school is worth that if you aren’t getting some kind of financial aid or grant money. Some of the second tier privates give pretty good merit awards, taking the cost of tuition and fees down to about $17-18,000 per year versus the $60,000 you would be paying elsewhere. It is well worth the trade off in my opinion.

It’s kind of like comparing Colorado School of Mines to a Carnegie Mellon or Case Western or even MIT. An in-state kid of your daughter’s stature would be paying about $27,500 per year total COA with a small scholarship and the Colorado Opportunity Fund for a good running school versus three times as much at these other schools for essentially the exact same education.

Brand matters but not much later in life when you have to earn your keep and only get to eat what you kill. Making the most of opportunities is far more important than having the initial handshake.

Of course many of the top tier Ivies have such enormous endowments, and now spend so much on need based assistance that the cost of attending is often comparable or better than at less expensive schools for many applicants. For example, for years now the Ivies have been crushing the Patriot league in sports, especially football, because the effective scholarship money of the Ivies outstrips the actual scholarship money paid by the Patriot schools, and there are far fewer NCAA restrictions. Also, brand continues to matter, more than it should.

To each their own. We have no idea about the OP financial situation (nor should we care), but you are correct- an Ivy league education is not cheap. However, if you make less than $80-100k a year, the Ivies and Nescac's will pay for the majority of your education. Over 50% of the students are on financial aid at those schools, and many are receiving a significant amount off their bills. Of course, if you are middle class, its not as favorable, but you need to weigh the pros and cons and whats right for you and your family. Some people might not value the education at Amherst, Hopkins or Yale at $75k a year, while others might find it a small price to pay. I have no doubt the coursework at a school like Mines is amazing, but the world leading professors and access to state of the art research and labs at a school like MIT are on a different level. At the end of the day, its up to the individual students to make the most of their situation. A hard working individual will have success no matter where they go.

As for the big fish/little pond argument, I've found it goes both ways. Yes, a sub 5 min mile will most likely qualify for Nationals in Div 3 and wouldn't even break the top 250 in Div 1. But the fastest time in D3 was a 4:40 this season, and several of the Nescac teams had 3+ girls in the sub 5:05 range. Meaning there is usually someone at your level you can train with, and unless you are the best of the best, you aren't going to come in and win D3 Nats in your first year. The benefit is that you will have the ability to contribute to your team from day one, get access to the big meets like regionals and nationals, and make the traveling team. And in the case of the Nescac's, still get to run at fast indoor venues like Boston, the Armory, and Ocean Breeze against D1 stars and Pros. On the other hand, D1 is D1, and the Ivies allow you to compete at the highest level of your sport, and also at the highest level academically. Thats appealing as well.

In the end, its up to the individual student athletes to decide whats most important to them.

Yes, I take your points. I’m talking specifically about families making just enough money so as not to qualify for need but not enough to justify the $80,000 per year sticker price.

My daughter is a straight A (all honors & AP) kid with a 1550 SAT on one try (no multiple tests or superscoring). We immediately wrote off the “elite” schools because she wants medical school, so we are playing the long game. She has a few, really solid private schools locked in at about $33k per year, with merit only, waiting on a few other full tuition or full ride opportunities.

My wife and I have worked with Ivy League grads and been completely underwhelmed relative to their level of education. Why would we pay $80k when she can get a solid education at a good private school w low student-teacher ratios and great access to internships and research as a high achiever at $33,000 or less? Some of the honors programs at flagship state schools offer the same access to high level kids who simply stayed home because the Ivy and Little Ivy price tags are beyond ridiculous.

Those are the people I’m referring to. If you get amazing financial assistance or have so much money that you simply don’t care, well, then congratulations.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I’m a professor have been involved with admissions at one of the top medical school in the US. The school strives for diversity, and this includes not giving undue consideration to the graduates of places like Harvard or Princeton or Williams just because of they are longstanding “elite” colleges. However, it still happens more than it should. At many top graduate programs and employers in various fields these legacy elite schools reman over represented. Also, as Nescac dad pointed out, there are some substantive differences. You can’t compare the resources, both in terms of faculty and opportunity, between MIT and the Colorado School of Mines (my father in law was on the faculty at the latter!) across the full spectrum of engineering and stem disciplines. Whether or not an undergrad can benefit from this difference is debatable and would depend a lot on the student.

Good post. Thank you. I suppose comparing Mines to MIT is a bit disingenuous but not completely. There are several kids at Mines who could’ve gotten admitted to MIT, and they will do just fine w their ROI, ultimately.

I’m just trying to let the OP know there are other options for brainy kids w great access to professors, research, & internships, as well as decent running programs, at a fraction of the price. We know because we are living it.