ArthurNotInMyYard wrote:
As a miler he would've been as good as any halfback or elite sprinter, which is to say not very good at all.
And relative to elite athletes, a sub 5 mile is.... not very good at all. He could probably have run a sub 5 mile if he put any amount of effort into it.
Guessing no.
He was a sprinter.
Sprinters cannot run middle or long distance
bingram wrote:
I think a prime Ricky Henderson is running a 4:50 mile without any endurance training. Give him a single solid training block and I put him well under 4:30
Thoughts?
Yep you are delusional.
Ricky was a pure sprinter. 60 would have been his limit.
I stood behind him in line at the airport
The guy looked like he was one of those London Letter boxes.
Accelerate like a booster, and fall twice as fast
As an aside, I was as fast as him sprinting and no where near 4:30 despite being a 400 m guy
ArthurNotInMyYard wrote:
Moo G wrote:
You're overestimating what it takes to run 5 min mile. Even 4:30 for men. I saw a St. John's University basketball playing jogging on lane at close to 6 min pace for about 10 laps wearing gym shoes and basketball shorts. His lanky physique doesn't look like he can run distance but he sure fooled me. He wasn't even trying to go fast.
I'm not "overestimating" anything; a 5-minute mile is out of reach for the vast majority of the world's population, even with training. There were two kids who joined my high school track team, thin guys who had self-selected into the sport because they liked it and were dedicated to it. They did all the work asked of them, including running on weekends, school holidays, and Summers, they pushed themselves to their limits -relative to their abilities- and you know what? After 3 years on the team one of them ran a 5:07 mile and the other a 5:03. You'll find similar situations replicated on teams around the country.
The better someone naturally is at the sort of short, fast, explosive efforts that Henderson excelled at, the less suited they will be to endurance efforts, and the longer the effort gets, the more their ability will drop off...precipitously, at a certain point. The notion that " If someone can sprint the 100 in 10-point, then a 5-minute mile would be jogging for them" is a complete fallacy. And just because you allegedly saw a basketball player running at 6-minute pace doesn't mean Henderson could go sub-5.
Peter Snell was mentioned above; as muscular as he was compared to most other mid-D runners, he was a wraith
compared to Henderson.
I think you may not understand the definition of wraith which means a pale, thin, or insubstantial person or thing. As I mentioned Snell was 5'10 and 175. Henderson was 5'10 and 195 neither was close to being a wraith. 20 lbs isn't a huge delta.
Furthermore Daley Thompson ran a 4:22 1500, a 4:41 mile equivalent at 6'0 and weighed 204 pounds.
Willi HOLDORF who was 6'0 and 198 pounds ran a 4:22 1500 (4:43 mile equivalent) after competing in 9 other events over two days.
Erki Nool 6'0 and 185 pounds ran a 4:29 1500 (4:50 mile equivalent) during a decathlon competition
Kurt Bendin was 5'10 and 201 pounds and ran a 4:38 1500 (5:00 mile equivalent)
Bryan Clay was 5'11 and 185 and just as ripped as Henderson and he managed a 4:38 1500 (5:00 mile equivalent) while also doing 4 other events the same day during the decathlon. (I wasn't able to find a stand-alone mile time for him).
Sure many people can't run a 5:00 mile but it is not elite and again I think there is a huge bias on these boards that someone has to be super thin to run a moderately fast middle distance time and it simply isn't true.
I do understand the definition of "wraith." As I stated in my first post in this thread, I've met Henderson in person and he was built like a bodybuilder, or a "London letter box," as described by another poster who met him, and compared to him Peter Snell did indeed look skinny (and a lot paler as well).
Yes the decathletes you mentioned are larger than mid-D specialists, but they are not pure sprinters, as Henderson was, and they also do occasional distance training; that is not in dispute. For them to run the mile/1500 times you mentioned is not mind-boggling.
But the OP opined that prime-era Henderson could run a 4:50 mile without any training , which is absurd.
I played some baseball in high school. We had to run suicides daily, down and back the full length of the court 40 times without stopping. I would think Rickey ran the mile (or longer) a lot and would crush 5 minutes. I always assumed the MLB was full of sub 5 guys
Barry Badrinath wrote:
Like, without training at all? It would be close. Give him a couple months to train and no question he could.
Fwiw, he actually did run a 9.4 100-yard dash in high school. That’s a 10.3 100-meters.
Right. He was way faster than simply sub-11.
professional male booster rocket wrote:
bingram wrote:
I think a prime Ricky Henderson is running a 4:50 mile without any endurance training. Give him a single solid training block and I put him well under 4:30
Thoughts?
Ricky was a pure sprinter. 60 would have been his limit.
Agree. I saw him play and Ricky actually had trouble going from 1st to home on an extra base hit. He lost steam fast. Not surprisingly, for a fast guy, his triples numbers are low.
His game improved when he moved from Adelaide Crows to Hawthorn. A strong running long kicking wingman.
We are talking about the same guy aren't we?
18rabbitskiing wrote:
ArthurNotInMyYard wrote:
I'm not "overestimating" anything; a 5-minute mile is out of reach for the vast majority of the world's population, even with training. There were two kids who joined my high school track team, thin guys who had self-selected into the sport because they liked it and were dedicated to it. They did all the work asked of them, including running on weekends, school holidays, and Summers, they pushed themselves to their limits -relative to their abilities- and you know what? After 3 years on the team one of them ran a 5:07 mile and the other a 5:03. You'll find similar situations replicated on teams around the country.
The better someone naturally is at the sort of short, fast, explosive efforts that Henderson excelled at, the less suited they will be to endurance efforts, and the longer the effort gets, the more their ability will drop off...precipitously, at a certain point. The notion that " If someone can sprint the 100 in 10-point, then a 5-minute mile would be jogging for them" is a complete fallacy. And just because you allegedly saw a basketball player running at 6-minute pace doesn't mean Henderson could go sub-5.
Peter Snell was mentioned above; as muscular as he was compared to most other mid-D runners, he was a wraith
compared to Henderson.
I think you may not understand the definition of wraith which means a pale, thin, or insubstantial person or thing. As I mentioned Snell was 5'10 and 175. Henderson was 5'10 and 195 neither was close to being a wraith. 20 lbs isn't a huge delta.
Furthermore Daley Thompson ran a 4:22 1500, a 4:41 mile equivalent at 6'0 and weighed 204 pounds.
Willi HOLDORF who was 6'0 and 198 pounds ran a 4:22 1500 (4:43 mile equivalent) after competing in 9 other events over two days.
Erki Nool 6'0 and 185 pounds ran a 4:29 1500 (4:50 mile equivalent) during a decathlon competition
Kurt Bendin was 5'10 and 201 pounds and ran a 4:38 1500 (5:00 mile equivalent)
Bryan Clay was 5'11 and 185 and just as ripped as Henderson and he managed a 4:38 1500 (5:00 mile equivalent) while also doing 4 other events the same day during the decathlon. (I wasn't able to find a stand-alone mile time for him).
Sure many people can't run a 5:00 mile but it is not elite and again I think there is a huge bias on these boards that someone has to be super thin to run a moderately fast middle distance time and it simply isn't true.
Weight does hurt you in the mile, and yes some here might overestimate the effects of weight alone but... the combination of raw explosiveness and weight does have a serious effect on distance performance. You are listing off names there without realising you are comparing Henderson to some of the greatest Decathletes ever where a 1500 is actually part of their event and as such, are trained for it both indirectly(their general overall weekly workload) and directly(actually doing some mid-d sessions) and are generally freaks of nature. The odds are extremely more likely that Henderson has the physiology of a sprinter than a an all-time great Decathlete. And there's also a reason why the fastest decathlon sprinters are never the fastest 1500 Decathletes and also why the 185lb+ ones are slower too.
Just because a very small percentage of people who are 200ish pounds and also happen to be world class athletes can do it, doesnt mean Ricky Henderson can. They are exceptions.
As for Snell, did you see Snell running 9.6 for the 100yd in HS? Or low to mid 10's for a 100m like the Decathletes? No because he had the physiology of a middle distance runner, not a sprinter known for being explosive. Also 175 is on the really heavy side for milers, saying 20lbs more is not much more is pretty funny, where do you stop? If 20lbs extra is only negligible, it wouldnt make much more difference again if you were 215, 235, 255 right? You are listing exceptions to the rule here in everything you say, but exceptions are just that, exceptions. And the more you add, the more exceptional it becomes.
I don't think so. With some exceptions, I have seen that many sprinters struggle with anything more than a 400. He was genetically gifted for sure, but sits way on the fast-twitch side of the spectrum.
Another thing to think about is his build. Let me put it this way: have any of you guys run with someone who was both shorter and heavier than Henderson (195), while being able to run under 5? I've probably been teammates with or competed against 100+ guys who could better that mark, but can't think of anyone fitting that size profile.
This whole thread irks me because we have twigs of has-beens immaturely trying to defeat father time weighing in on an athlete they know little about. Ricky Henderson never went by that...as an Oakland Athletic, New York Yankee or San Diego Padre. Or with shorter stints in Toronto, Boston, etc.
He was Rickey.
Always Rickey
Inaccurate names are offensive.
If you run and can't give a correct name, stick to running.
y u like this wrote:
They absolutely can not. Rich Froning barely broke 6 in the mile. Crossfitters are extremely slow and generally not that great of athletes though. The conversation is always about nfl players being able to compete with sprinters but I think it would be hilarious to see any pro athlete go in and kick abunch of CrossFit guys around in their sport. Honestly most of them would struggle in their own sport against the majority of d1 athletes. Most of the lifter xfit crowd are failed high school athletes.
fronning doesnt strike me as a runner type, but guys like hunter mcintyre have run sub 450. there are def others. hell nick bare has run sub 450.
carmine9 wrote:
Guessing no.
He was a sprinter.
Sprinters cannot run middle or long distance
what about that 9.8 100 guy that just ran an 18 minute 5k?
carmine9 wrote:
Guessing no.
He was a sprinter.
Sprinters cannot run middle or long distance
Ran a mid 10.7 FAT as a senior in HS, and at the end of my college career I broke the 10.3 barrier.
But in middle school my coaches wouldn't let me sprint and I ran a 2:09 800 and a 5:05 1600 in 8th grade.
Thoughts?
My point ultimately being sub 5 isn't what you seem to think it is, especially for talented athletes. I'm sure if Henderson had wanted to, he could have.
Keep in mind, though, thelat the pursuit would not have suited his goals/needs as a baseball player overall. Indeed it would have been to his detriment to make much of a serious go at it.
No way.
I had guys on my high school track team that could run 52 second 400m and 2:03 800m who couldn’t break 5
te5n1k wrote:
y u like this wrote:
They absolutely can not. Rich Froning barely broke 6 in the mile. Crossfitters are extremely slow and generally not that great of athletes though. The conversation is always about nfl players being able to compete with sprinters but I think it would be hilarious to see any pro athlete go in and kick abunch of CrossFit guys around in their sport. Honestly most of them would struggle in their own sport against the majority of d1 athletes. Most of the lifter xfit crowd are failed high school athletes.
fronning doesnt strike me as a runner type, but guys like hunter mcintyre have run sub 450. there are def others. hell nick bare has run sub 450.
YOU read Froning and respond immediately with fronning.
Stupid stupid stupid
Rickey you fools wrote:
This whole thread irks me because we have twigs of has-beens immaturely trying to defeat father time weighing in on an athlete they know little about. Ricky Henderson never went by that...as an Oakland Athletic, New York Yankee or San Diego Padre. Or with shorter stints in Toronto, Boston, etc.
He was Rickey.
Always Rickey
Inaccurate names are offensive.
If you run and can't give a correct name, stick to running.
It's like whisky and whiskey. Lol.
blitzplay wrote:
18rabbitskiing wrote:
I think you may not understand the definition of wraith which means a pale, thin, or insubstantial person or thing. As I mentioned Snell was 5'10 and 175. Henderson was 5'10 and 195 neither was close to being a wraith. 20 lbs isn't a huge delta.Furthermore Daley Thompson ran a 4:22 1500, a 4:41 mile equivalent at 6'0 and weighed 204 pounds.Willi HOLDORF who was 6'0 and 198 pounds ran a 4:22 1500 (4:43 mile equivalent) after competing in 9 other events over two days.Erki Nool 6'0 and 185 pounds ran a 4:29 1500 (4:50 mile equivalent) during a decathlon competitionKurt Bendin was 5'10 and 201 pounds and ran a 4:38 1500 (5:00 mile equivalent)Bryan Clay was 5'11 and 185 and just as ripped as Henderson and he managed a 4:38 1500 (5:00 mile equivalent) while also doing 4 other events the same day during the decathlon. (I wasn't able to find a stand-alone mile time for him).Sure many people can't run a 5:00 mile but it is not elite and again I think there is a huge bias on these boards that someone has to be super thin to run a moderately fast middle distance time and it simply isn't true.
Weight does hurt you in the mile, and yes some here might overestimate the effects of weight alone but... the combination of raw explosiveness and weight does have a serious effect on distance performance. You are listing off names there without realising you are comparing Henderson to some of the greatest Decathletes ever where a 1500 is actually part of their event and as such, are trained for it both indirectly(their general overall weekly workload) and directly(actually doing some mid-d sessions) and are generally freaks of nature. The odds are extremely more likely that Henderson has the physiology of a sprinter than a an all-time great Decathlete. And there's also a reason why the fastest decathlon sprinters are never the fastest 1500 Decathletes and also why the 185lb+ ones are slower too. Just because a very small percentage of people who are 200ish pounds and also happen to be world class athletes can do it, doesnt mean Ricky Henderson can. They are exceptions.As for Snell, did you see Snell running 9.6 for the 100yd in HS? Or low to mid 10's for a 100m like the Decathletes? No because he had the physiology of a middle distance runner, not a sprinter known for being explosive. Also 175 is on the really heavy side for milers, saying 20lbs more is not much more is pretty funny, where do you stop? If 20lbs extra is only negligible, it wouldnt make much more difference again if you were 215, 235, 255 right? You are listing exceptions to the rule here in everything you say, but exceptions are just that, exceptions. And the more you add, the more exceptional it becomes.
Snell was big for a miler and that was my point. If he gained 20 pounds he might not have run a 3:54 but he would still run way under 5:00 minutes. I gained 20 pounds during the early part of COVID and my 5K time didn't tank, I might have been a bit slower but it wasn't a huge decline. Similarly I lost that weight and then some over the last six months and I didn't magically turn into a hugely faster runner.
Snell wasn't close to being a wraith, he was way more built than any other modern mile champion. He probably had the highest BMI of any olympic champion above the 400M. The fact that someone as muscular as he could hold the world record in the 800 and the mile hows that you don't have to be 5'9 and 130 pounds or 5'10 and under 140 pounds to be world class in the mile / 1500. That seems to be the prevailing view on these message boards but clearly it isn't a requirement to be world class.