Highschool Cross Country all-stars race by decade Footlocker style, which decade wins?

raging clue wrote:

The 2000’s takes it with the 2010’s right behind. Mike Fout and Matt Withrow are the more “underrated of this decade” and Verzbicas won for the first time in 2009.

I think Verzbicas should count as 2010s because you can't have the same person twice in a race, and Verzbicas was better in 2010. Same for Ritz, he only counts for 2000s.

For the 2000s, I think the team is gonna be:

Ritz, Webb, Hall, Rupp, Withrow, Fernandez, Solinsky, Fout, then maybe Kiptoo and Chad Hall to round it out.

For the 2010s:

Nico Young, Verzbicas, Ches, Fisher, Hunter, Sprout, Zeinasellassie, McGorty, Hocker, and Clinger

For just those two decades, I think the 2010s win just because of their depth. I think the top 5 consists of Young in 1st, then Ritz, Verzbicas, Fisher, and Solinsky.

Honestly, I think Nico wins it. He crushed the stacked NXN field in awful conditions in a CR time (beating the FL champ by 14 seconds). Then he ran a 7:56 3k a few weeks later. I think he had a good shot at 8:30 and 13:37 if he'd had a regular season. Nico ran a 13:50 with no pacing after 2k, so he definitely has the endurance, and he outkicked a 4:02 miler as a junior in his 8:40 race, so I think he has the kick to win. Ritz got bronze at WJXC, but I still think if you put Nico and Ritz head to head at FL, Nico wins, even if it's just barely.

Solinksy could be anywhere from 2-4 IMO. Sure, he crushed his FL field, but that field wasn't as good as the 2019 NXN field. Verzbicas won FL 2 years in a row and won NXN, along with a sub 4 and an 8:29 that spring, and won World Junior triathalon or something, which makes me think he'd probably also beat Solinsky. I think there was a consensus that Fisher also had a shot to beat Ritz's Michigan State Meet record (14:10), but the horrible conditions that day prevented him from doing it, though he still ran one of the best times ever there. He also ran 3:59 and 8:43, so I think he beats Solinsky.

For the rest of the top 15, I think Ches, Clinger, Hunter, Webb, Hocker, Withrow, Rupp, Zeinasellassie, and both Halls. Roughly in that order. Webb is that low because he beat pretty much everyone in XC until he got absolutely crushed by Ritz at FL. Also, Hunter won FL, then broke Webb's indoor mile record, then broke his own record. If he hadn't gotten Lyme disease, I think he may have gotten a shot at Webb's outdoor record too, so he goes above Webb. Ches won FL twice and won NCAA XC his freshman year so he's pretty high too.

Haha you are so narrow sided and no since of high school cross country history.

I would never omit 70’s runners or say they would lose to any high school era. Virgin, Kimball, Hulst, Terry William, Chapa, Salazar and Nelson just to name a few. Very few cross country races, if any, we’re at the now common 5 k distance. So to think that these runners would get trounced by another era is naive at best.

Remember we’re talking HS only.

1990s

Adam Goucher

Meb

Ritz

Matt Downin

...

...

Alan

oldoldrunner wrote:

Haha you are so narrow sided and no since of high school cross country history.

???

oldoldrunner wrote:

I would never omit 70’s runners or say they would lose to any high school era. Virgin, Kimball, Hulst, Terry William, Chapa, Salazar and Nelson just to name a few. Very few cross country races, if any, we’re at the now common 5 k distance. So to think that these runners would get trounced by another era is naive at best.

Remember we’re talking HS only.

I didn't say they'd lose to any high school era, just the two most stacked ones in history. I think several of the ones you listed would probably be in the top 10 in this scenario, but I don't think any of them are really challenging Young or Ritz for first place.

He failed the 2010's also!

Seriously, Methner, Sprout, Anderson, and Schoppe and no mention of MF Casey Clinger??

FAIL......Try again, and drop the JV guys

2000's you mention 6 guys but leave out Rupp. ??

Try harder

"90s-???" Come on! Goucher would probably smoke em all if they lined up today! (Definitely the most competitive!) Also, Ritz spent 3 of his 4 years in HS in the 90's not the 2000's

1980s ?? You forgot BOBBY KENNEDY!! and RUBIN REINA!!

......Have you heard of the internet? Do you know the Balboa course record? Are you aware of Bobby Kennedy and his legacy?

If you really took the top 7 from each decade and raced with neutral footwear on an actual XC course:

1st 2000s (with Ritz)

2nd1980s

3rd 2010s

4th 1990s

5th 1970s

6th 2020s

(No one reputable actually believes that Nico or Galen or Adam or Drew or Ches or Ritz or Reina or Clinger or Fernandez or about 20 other past studs wouldn't run sub 14 on the speedway called RunningLane if they had the opportunity!....That's why Tully speed ratings for NP at Runninglane were so low!

For the 80s, you have to include:

Scott Fry - holy crap how has he not been mentioned yet?

Marc Davis

Todd Williams

Brian Dameworth

Fun hypo.

I am not going include the 1990s and prior guys as I just don't remember enough of them and it's tough to compare across generations. Given their HS success, I assume Pre, Virgin, and Lindgren all would be T5-10 guys in a race like this, but who knows where to put them. But in a hypothetical of the 2000s, 2010s, and 2020s, here goes my best guess based on how all these guys ran/their fitness level in their respective best seasons/postseasons races (5 from each):

2020s - Sahlman, Wolfe, Young, Young, Hough

1. Dathan Ritzenhein -- nobody has dominated HS cross country running, particularly against guys like Webb/Hall, as Ritz. Nobody has come within 39 seconds of his 14:10 in Michigan since, despite guys like Hough, Kessler, and Fisher. His FL performance against Webb was probably the best run by a HSer ever (highest speed rating I am aware of -- his 214 there is considerably better than something like Young's 205 in 2019).

2. Edward Cheserek -- as close to Ritz's dominance as it comes, but he was more of a racer so I'm not sure we ever saw just how fast he could go if pushed. Challenged Verzbicas when he was just a sophomore (2nd at NXN), easily won in kicks at FL both the next years. Highest rating of 208 (207 @ FL).

3. Lukas Verzbicas -- up there with the dudes above him. 2x champ, pretty much untouchable, and tended to dominate. Not sure of his highest speed rating.

4. Chris Solinsky -- absolutely crushed a great field in 2002 - speed rating of 212 (3rd highest ever to my knowledge).

5. Matt Withrow -- very underrated on here, it seems. Two of the fastest speed ratings ever (207 @ FL, 207 @ FLR). Beat one of the greatest fields of all time in taking down Rupp, Kiptoo, and True. Deserving of this spot.

6. Grant Fisher - another 2x champ with fantastic speed ratings (206).

7. Drew Hunter -- one of the best FL performances in recent memory (207). Obvious huge talent.

8. Nico Young -- dominated a great field at NXN. Speed rating of 205.

9. Mike Fout -- very underrated, but put up one of the greatest performances and speed ratings at FL his senior year in taking down Chris Derrick and German Fernandez (210).

10. C. Sahlman -- Very tough to compare the Garmin RL course to any other. HIs speedrating at RL was a 203 so I'm using that as a guide.

11. G. Fernandez -- Best of the non-champions given his terrific 209 at Woodward, which withstood the challenges of Nico Young and Colin Sahlman.

12. P. Wolfe -- COVID certainly limited his ability to show off in his best year -- would have liked to see what he could do on some classic courses. Oh well.

13. Leo Young -- Just behind Sahlman all year.

14. Lex Young -- Same

15. Riley Hough -- Won FL, hard to know if RL was just a down race or if the NP guys are fitter.

By speed ratings, the 2020s decade dudes just don't compare, but speed ratings do have their flaws. Still, given that none of the NP guys could beat German's times and Sahlman is the only champ of the group, I think it's a fair order.

Chris Derrick probably has an argument to be ahead of Fernandez. He has a 208 speed rating from FL when he lost to Fout. Alan Webb was pretty dominant in 2000 but for getting pulverized by Ritz at FLN, but he could arguably be above Fernandez as well, I suppose. Fout might have some legit beef with being 9th as well given his amazing performance and competition that year -- could see him being 6th or 7th, but I give Fisher the nod for being a 2x champ. Can't solve every issue, but if you move Fout to 6th the older dudes probably win.

Final Team Scores:

1. 2010s - 26

2. 2000s - 30

3. 2020s - 64

Peach Pit wrote:

oldoldrunner wrote:

Haha you are so narrow sided and no since of high school cross country history.

???

oldoldrunner wrote:

I would never omit 70’s runners or say they would lose to any high school era. Virgin, Kimball, Hulst, Terry William, Chapa, Salazar and Nelson just to name a few. Very few cross country races, if any, we’re at the now common 5 k distance. So to think that these runners would get trounced by another era is naive at best.

Remember we’re talking HS only.

I didn't say they'd lose to any high school era, just the two most stacked ones in history. I think several of the ones you listed would probably be in the top 10 in this scenario, but I don't think any of them are really challenging Young or Ritz for first place.

Whaaaaaat????

There is one runner that post on this web site that I would put up against anyone one in high school history over any 5 k Cross County Course and I believe he would win. That is 1973 high school grad Virgin. And he was only 17 when he graduated high school!

oldoldrunner wrote:

Peach Pit wrote:

???

I didn't say they'd lose to any high school era, just the two most stacked ones in history. I think several of the ones you listed would probably be in the top 10 in this scenario, but I don't think any of them are really challenging Young or Ritz for first place.

Whaaaaaat????

There is one runner that post on this web site that I would put up against anyone one in high school history over any 5 k Cross County Course and I believe he would win. That is 1973 high school grad Virgin. And he was only 17 when he graduated high school!

Virgin is up there but I don't see how you put him over Ritz. As a senior in HS, Ritz ran the 2001 IAAF World Cross Country junior champs, coming in 3rd behind Bekele and a Kenyan, ahead of Nicholas Kemboi, a college Tegenkamp, and others. But I do think Virgin is in the Top 5-10 -- he was a monster in cross country.

Chapa and McChesney deserve a spot on the 70s squad.

Dudes in that 2001 World XC Junior race that Ritz took bronze in, along with how much Ritz beat them by:

3. Ritz 25:46

4. Kemboi 25:52 (+6, Kemboi ran 13:26 about a month after that)

5. Tegenkamp 25:55 (+9, frosh in college at the time)

28. Nate Brannen 27:08 (+1:16, ran 1:46, 3:41 that year)

30. Simon Bairu 27:15 (1:23)

39. Ian Dobson 27:34 (1:42, frosh in college at the time)

59. Mo Farah 28:06 (2:14, was an 8:03 3000 / 13:56 runner at the time)

So he was basically running just ahead of 13:30ish dudes, crushing high 13s low 14s and 8:00 - 8:10 dudes.

GF> wrote:

Dathan Ritzenhein, German Fernandez, Chris Solinsky, Galen Rupp, Alan Webb, and Ryan Hall, ...

Lol, is this even a debate?

Exactly. 2000s dominate.

Brian Giankowski wrote:

GF> wrote:

Dathan Ritzenhein, German Fernandez, Chris Solinsky, Galen Rupp, Alan Webb, and Ryan Hall, ...

Lol, is this even a debate?

Exactly. 2000s dominate.

It's close between 2000s and 2010s (even considering OP left out Fout, Withrow, Rupp, Kiptoo, etc. from the 2000s crew).

Cheserek and Verzbicas each have a pretty good argument for GOAT HS XC runner. They are both certainly on the Mount Rushmore with Ritzenhein and whoever we want to plug in 4th (Virgin, Fisher, Young, Withrow, Fernandez, Lindgren, Pre)

birdbeard wrote:

oldoldrunner wrote:

Whaaaaaat????

There is one runner that post on this web site that I would put up against anyone one in high school history over any 5 k Cross County Course and I believe he would win. That is 1973 high school grad Virgin. And he was only 17 when he graduated high school!

Virgin is up there but I don't see how you put him over Ritz. As a senior in HS, Ritz ran the 2001 IAAF World Cross Country junior champs, coming in 3rd behind Bekele and a Kenyan, ahead of Nicholas Kemboi, a college Tegenkamp, and others. But I do think Virgin is in the Top 5-10 -- he was a monster in cross country.

And I would not count this guy out:

birdbeard wrote:

Dudes in that 2001 World XC Junior race that Ritz took bronze in, along with how much Ritz beat them by:

3. Ritz 25:46

4. Kemboi 25:52 (+6, Kemboi ran 13:26 about a month after that)

5. Tegenkamp 25:55 (+9, frosh in college at the time)

28. Nate Brannen 27:08 (+1:16, ran 1:46, 3:41 that year)

30. Simon Bairu 27:15 (1:23)

39. Ian Dobson 27:34 (1:42, frosh in college at the time)

59. Mo Farah 28:06 (2:14, was an 8:03 3000 / 13:56 runner at the time)

So he was basically running just ahead of 13:30ish dudes, crushing high 13s low 14s and 8:00 - 8:10 dudes.

And don't forget I think Kemboi ran 26: 40's for the 10K about a year or so later... and even though he was ~40 sec behind Bekele, KB was likely already a 13:00 min guy..... This is Ritz best race - even better than FL

So is it true, as one poster stated another hinted at, that Newbury raced in spiked shoes a total of once this past year, at Runninglane? I know none of them would wear a non-Nike shoe at gunpoint. The brand is not my question. I was under the impression they raced in Vaporflies since the only picture I've seen with enough detail shows them. I don't know much about them but many a thread has mentions of their shoes, never referring to spikes until this one.

BS wrote:

birdbeard wrote:

Dudes in that 2001 World XC Junior race that Ritz took bronze in, along with how much Ritz beat them by:

3. Ritz 25:46

4. Kemboi 25:52 (+6, Kemboi ran 13:26 about a month after that)

5. Tegenkamp 25:55 (+9, frosh in college at the time)

28. Nate Brannen 27:08 (+1:16, ran 1:46, 3:41 that year)

30. Simon Bairu 27:15 (1:23)

39. Ian Dobson 27:34 (1:42, frosh in college at the time)

59. Mo Farah 28:06 (2:14, was an 8:03 3000 / 13:56 runner at the time)

So he was basically running just ahead of 13:30ish dudes, crushing high 13s low 14s and 8:00 - 8:10 dudes.

And don't forget I think Kemboi ran 26: 40's for the 10K about a year or so later... and even though he was ~40 sec behind Bekele, KB was likely already a 13:00 min guy..... This is Ritz best race - even better than FL

Typical Letsrun poster. Getting off the main topic. HS only! Not what someone did later in their careers.

If it was just 10 k times then my 70’s would be the winner.

https://trackandfieldnews.com/tfn-lists/high-school-all-time-top-10s-boys/

oldoldrunner wrote:

If it was just 10 k times then my 70’s would be the winner.

https://trackandfieldnews.com/tfn-lists/high-school-all-time-top-10s-boys/

That's absolutely right. It depends how long the race would be. If the whole thread assumes 5k on the Footlocker course, you could have modern contenders. But as you get longer, the results would shift to feature guys from earlier eras more heavily.

I personally think it's a bummer that teenagers are no longer 'allowed' to run actual long distance events. I put 'allowed' in quotes because it is of course legal. It is not, however, socially acceptable and parental and peer pressure effectively have eliminated it. Add in year-round school-sanctioned coaching and you have an environment in which it's not really possible to run anything longer than 5k without really being an iconoclast. One would have to consciously shun convention to run a 10000 in 2022 at an age under 18.

This is unfortunate. The United States was a leading distance power at the time the HS 10000 record was set. If you have enough kids trying anything from 10k to marathon, a few will be good. Occasionally one will be world class. The country is currently a mid-D power. That's what teenagers are told to do.