ICU providers, how are your units looking? Total COVID & Vaccinated vs Unvaccinated.

Not a doc, but an epidemiologist at an 800 bed hospital.

We currently have 72 inpatients for COVID, with 21 in the ICU. Of those, 10 are ventilated. 20 ICU patients are unvaccinated, the one that is vaccinated is very elderly.

For comparison, 12/21/2020, a year ago today just before the vaccine became available to the public, we had 184 inpatients, 47 in ICU and 21 on ventilators.

76 beds. At capacity. 66 Covid. All but 3 unvaccinated. Ages 17 to 76, most between 27 and 58. Many regular or heavy vapers or smokers. About half overweight but only 4 seriously obese. Most arriving too late for early, preventive treatment to be utilized. Averaging 5 Covid deaths a day again over past week and rapidly rising. Many in denial or refusing recommended care. Too many belligerent. Some angry their pseudo science “drugs” had failed them.

Steve the Addict

Carmin9

Two of the dumbest posters in the history of letsrun, and that’s saying something.

Sweglord369 wrote:

Steve the Addict

Carmin9

Two of the dumbest posters in the history of letsrun, and that’s saying something.

Any actual argument to make?

Or refute?

ICU Sacramento wrote:

76 beds. At capacity. 66 Covid. All but 3 unvaccinated. Ages 17 to 76, most between 27 and 58. Many regular or heavy vapers or smokers. About half overweight but only 4 seriously obese. Most arriving too late for early, preventive treatment to be utilized. Averaging 5 Covid deaths a day again over past week and rapidly rising. Many in denial or refusing recommended care. Too many belligerent. Some angry their pseudo science “drugs” had failed them.

66 of 76 beds are COVID patients and 63 of those are unvaccinated? That is astounding and well above the national average. (35% of ICU patients are COVID positive). My question for you is how was their vaccination status determined? Did you personally interview each and every one of them? Have you asked for their cards or are you just relying on their Electronic Health Record? How many were transferred from nursing homes? Considering that nursing homes pretty much all require their residents to be vaccinated, any person coming from a nursing home would be vaccinated. The numbers you put up there not only paint a picture that the unvaccinated are dying in extraordinarily high numbers, but that in general, vaccinated people stopped dying at all. Your stats would imply that pre-COVID, you would only have 10 of 76 ICU beds in use. That seems very suspicious. It's as if people in your service area stopped having heart attacks, stopped getting in car accidents, stopped having strokes, are no longer diabetic, etc. If your typical ICU utilization rate pre-COVID was 13%, then it is a wonder that your hospital was still in business. Or maybe, just maybe, the accounting is flawed and a bunch of those "unvaccinated" patients are indeed vaccinated.

EpiRunner wrote:

Not a doc, but an epidemiologist at an 800 bed hospital.

We currently have 72 inpatients for COVID, with 21 in the ICU. Of those, 10 are ventilated. 20 ICU patients are unvaccinated, the one that is vaccinated is very elderly.

For comparison, 12/21/2020, a year ago today just before the vaccine became available to the public, we had 184 inpatients, 47 in ICU and 21 on ventilators.

Did you personally verify the vaccination status of the 20 "unvaccinated" patients? The only reason I ask is for states that track breakthrough data, 30-40% of COVID deaths are among the vaccinated. In the UK, where breakthrough data is tracked very accurately, about 80% of COVID deaths are among the vaccinated. For you to be saying that 5% of COVID ICU patients are vaccinated flies in the face of those statistics. So, either your hospital is an outlier, or the vaccination data never made it into their Electronic Health Record.

joed|rt wrote:

ICU Sacramento wrote:

76 beds. At capacity. 66 Covid. All but 3 unvaccinated. Ages 17 to 76, most between 27 and 58. Many regular or heavy vapers or smokers. About half overweight but only 4 seriously obese. Most arriving too late for early, preventive treatment to be utilized. Averaging 5 Covid deaths a day again over past week and rapidly rising. Many in denial or refusing recommended care. Too many belligerent. Some angry their pseudo science “drugs” had failed them.

...My question for you is how was their vaccination status determined? Did you personally interview each and every one of them? Have you asked for their cards or are you just relying on their Electronic Health Record? ...

The most obvious and likely way that a hospital patient's vaccination status is determined is by asking the patient. The patient's answer (yes I am vaccinated; no I'm not vaccinated) will be recorded in the patient's hospital record. If a patient cannot speak for him or herself, a family member will be asked.

This is called taking a history on a patient and is done as a matter of routine for all patients.

"Unvaccinated" no longer means zero doses. Many hospitals and State departments of public health are combining groups of people with 0, 1 and even 2 doses, then reporting them as a single number in the unvaccinated category.

64 patients in the hospital with COVID - One of the 64 is vaccinated

11 in the ICU and 6 on a ventilator- none are vaccinated.

carmine9 wrote:

Sweglord369 wrote:

Steve the Addict

Carmin9

Two of the dumbest posters in the history of letsrun, and that’s saying something.

Any actual argument to make?

Or refute?

I'm fine with idiots calling me an idiot. If it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside, so be it. I preferably listen to opinions that are actually credible though.

Excellent question! It is absolutely possible that a vaccine did not make it into an EHR and for whatever reason the patient stated that they were not vaccinated when asked. Sometimes a patient is unable to speak for themselves and a family member will be asked, the family member can certainly be wrong.

Assuming the numbers are correct, there are a lot of factors that can affect the proportions of vaccinated vs unvaccinated hospitalizations. First, we're the highest acuity hospital in our area. We're also a public "safety net" hospital. We get the sickest patients, we get the patients on medicaid/medicare, and we get the patients that are uninsured.

For more information, we have 98 adult ICU beds. Having just over 20% of those be occupied by COVID patients actually puts us quite a bit below the national average, and it's a lower percentage than the other hospitals in our area. I don't have specific numbers for the vaccine status of the other hospitals. I do know that in our county, the number of hospitalized patients are split about 50/50 between vaccinated and unvaccinated. In the month of November, about 68% of deaths were among the unvaccinated.

Another assumption you might be making is that all patients that succumb are in the ICU. That simply isn't true. Many die in the ED, some die in med/surg units, and some die at home. More than half of those unvaccinated ICU patients will be discharged.

It's hard to take a look at one hospital and compare it to national data, because there are a lot of factors at play. We're one data point and you have the numbers from one day.

ICU Sacramento wrote:

76 beds. At capacity. 66 Covid. All but 3 unvaccinated. Ages 17 to 76, most between 27 and 58. Many regular or heavy vapers or smokers. About half overweight but only 4 seriously obese. Most arriving too late for early, preventive treatment to be utilized. Averaging 5 Covid deaths a day again over past week and rapidly rising. Many in denial or refusing recommended care. Too many belligerent. Some angry their pseudo science “drugs” had failed them.

Brutal, good luck

DanM wrote:

"Unvaccinated" no longer means zero doses. Many hospitals and State departments of public health are combining groups of people with 0, 1 and even 2 doses, then reporting them as a single number in the unvaccinated category.

I don't think that's true. In New York at least, we differentiate between vaccinated (2 weeks after 2 mRNA doses or 1 J&J), partially vaccinated (1 dose or less than two weeks after the last dose), and unvaccinated. We do keep records on folks with a booster dose, but they're reported with the fully vaccinated.

The Lily Hammer wrote:

joed|rt wrote:

...My question for you is how was their vaccination status determined? Did you personally interview each and every one of them? Have you asked for their cards or are you just relying on their Electronic Health Record? ...

The most obvious and likely way that a hospital patient's vaccination status is determined is by asking the patient. The patient's answer (yes I am vaccinated; no I'm not vaccinated) will be recorded in the patient's hospital record. If a patient cannot speak for him or herself, a family member will be asked.

This is called taking a history on a patient and is done as a matter of routine for all patients.

So what you are saying is you believe that they typically run at 13% capacity pre-COVID in the middle of the holiday season. Typically 68% of ICU beds are in use (and one would expect it to be higher during the holiday season). So, when he is giving out stats that imply that without COVID, they would be at 13% capacity, it makes one question how accurately numbers are being tracked. If the vaccination record was never updated in their EHR (which happens more often than not), it would not make it into their records.

Heck, as early as June, Project Salus contractor Humetrix revealed that vaccinated Medicare patients were already outnumbering unvaccinated Medicare patients in hospitalizations. And yet 6 months later, with variants widespread, we are supposed to believe that trend magically reversed itself and is now ten orders of magnitude less than that, even though unvaccinated individuals have decreased in number since that time? The accounting is severely flawed.

The 32% of county deaths number makes sense. The 1 in 21 number made less sense. If a lot of your patients are indigent, then that would help explain the high number of unvaccinated individuals (one would imagine that a lot of homeless and drug addicts are not vaccinated). My wife worked in a public hospital during her residency that did a lot of organ transplants and served a lot of immigrants and Medicaid patients. One thing she learned was that a bunch of people lie when they come to the hospital (primarily about drug use, but about other things as well), so they would always run the blood (and would almost always find marijuana, cocaine, benzodiazapines and other drugs in their system). If you are dealing with immigrant populations, I imagine trying to match up an EHR is next to impossible, especially if they are using a false ID. Regardless, it's worth acknowledging that the 32% of deaths being COVID would still be an undercount (and never an overcount).

joed|rt wrote:

Heck, as early as June, Project Salus contractor Humetrix revealed that vaccinated Medicare patients were already outnumbering unvaccinated Medicare patients in hospitalizations. And yet 6 months later, with variants widespread, we are supposed to believe that trend magically reversed itself and is now ten orders of magnitude less than that, even though unvaccinated individuals have decreased in number since that time? The accounting is severely flawed.

Or instead of flawed not of similar populations.

Medicare is available for 65 year and up. Are the current ICU counts of only old (Medicare) folks or a cross section of all ages. I would not look at two different sets of patients and try to draw a common comparison.

70% of what you say carmine9 and steve is false or heavily misleading. Focusing on vaccine not preventing infections, using poor poor data (not even data) like VAERS, and then focusing on minimal severe breakthrough cases.

Clearly the vaccine works to heavily reduce severe cases, it’s overwhelmingly safe, and it’s cheap ($20 vs a lot more for antibodies etc)

And then Steve keeps saying “time to wake up sheeple!” — yet he gets all his info and talking points from groupthink “countercurrent” thought websites and stuff, that just misleads. It’s different side of the same sheep.

chgray wrote:

joed|rt wrote:

Heck, as early as June, Project Salus contractor Humetrix revealed that vaccinated Medicare patients were already outnumbering unvaccinated Medicare patients in hospitalizations. And yet 6 months later, with variants widespread, we are supposed to believe that trend magically reversed itself and is now ten orders of magnitude less than that, even though unvaccinated individuals have decreased in number since that time? The accounting is severely flawed.

Or instead of flawed not of similar populations.

Medicare is available for 65 year and up. Are the current ICU counts of only old (Medicare) folks or a cross section of all ages. I would not look at two different sets of patients and try to draw a common comparison.

In general 82% of ICU admissions are 60+, so not much different than Medicare admissions.

joed|rt wrote:

In general 82% of ICU admissions are 60+, so not much different than Medicare admissions.

I don't know but that 82% is that in general or Covid ICU admissions. Not surprised if general ICU admissions are older people but is that also the % during 2021?