Faster than threshold tempo?

lexel wrote:

Some marathoners do train also at around 3mmol lactate level (e.g. Kipchoge does).

What do you think about that?

I'm not sure if that question is directed at me, but I give my point of view. Each training is focused on improving different aspects and should be within the plan according to the qualities and deficiencies of each runner.

Running at 3 mmol/l for a highly trained athlete means running at threshold or tempo. Even if this zone is highly developed, it needs maintenance. It has also been shown that running above this does not improve VO2max excessively, as it seems to have little room for improvement. Tempo running actually improves both the anaerobic and aerobic threshold, but it is more aggressive at the muscular level, so it must be individualized according to the level, requirements, experience and muscle and tendon strength of each athlete.

mistar wrote:

I know the usual definition of a tempo run is actually at lactate threshold.

I’ve been reading some material from coaches like Canova and Marcus O’Sullivan, and they also make reference to making your lactate threshold higher by working at paces just faster than LT. like instead of “pushing” the threshold from below, you’re “pulling” it from above.

My question is, could you do a faster tempo run, say 10-15 minutes, to work on pulling your threshold up? Is there a purpose to longer continuous running at a pace faster than threshold?

Canova uses percentage of race pace as a practical way to define intensity/duration. The variables affecting threshold and possibly getting accurate field measurements make it not practical. Especially for continous runs. Depending on your qualification level a15 minutes run should be tied to a shorter race. Something similar to what old school italian distance coaches referred to " corto veloce".

Yes you was addressed and gave exquisite response.

Pletan wrote:

From most of what I've seen of Canova's programs, when he prescribes faster-than-threshold pace to affect threshold, it's done as an alternation with a pace just slower than threshold. Essentially, averaging threshold pace while spending time at paces faster than.

This would presumably have a double benefit of teaching the body how to maintain a faster pace through the fast reps, and efficiently shuttle lactate while still running just below the threshold. A simultaneous pushing and pulling of the lactate threshold, to follow your metaphor.

Example: alternating 800m/1k at CV/10k pace and Marathon pace.

Cyclists call these "over-unders", and I believe they are pretty common practice in that world. For example - 4 sets of 6 min at 1 min over (105% threshold), 1 min under (95% threshold)

Trying to recall accurately from my short cycling obsession, which I am happy to say is in the past.

TooFat2PackRun wrote:

Faster than tempo run?

RACE

or

TIME TRIAL

Nope, Intervals and speed work/fast reps are faster than than threshold -approx 95% AKA VO2 max pace. ie, for many, 3k pace-ish. Although i guess we are saying the same thing. Unfortunately as many have said over the years, people use the term interval to mean any running where you stop and run again. JDaniels uses it to mean a pace.

2x10 minutes at CV is a good, hard workout. Fast runners could do 3x2 miles at CV. To peak for a 10k, you might even do 15-20 minutes continuously at CV as the OP said.

MLSS is NOT the same as Vo2max.

If anything MLSS is the same as LT2/Anaerobic threshold.

Johantanman wrote:

MLSS is NOT the same as Vo2max.

If anything MLSS is the same as LT2/Anaerobic threshold.

Wrong. Look it up. To maintain vVO2max, Velocity at VO2max you are producing and oxidising about 10% more Lactate than LT4 which itself is about 5% more than LT2.

mistar wrote:

I know the usual definition of a tempo run is actually at lactate threshold.

I’ve been reading some material from coaches like Canova and Marcus O’Sullivan, and they also make reference to making your lactate threshold higher by working at paces just faster than LT. like instead of “pushing” the threshold from below, you’re “pulling” it from above.

My question is, could you do a faster tempo run, say 10-15 minutes, to work on pulling your threshold up? Is there a purpose to longer continuous running at a pace faster than threshold?

So basically 10k pace?

Does your racing involve a lot of 8k-10k races? So yes probably a good idea to train at these paces....2mi repeats for example.

Too many people make training too hard by confusing what matters with what doesn't.

Alan

Johantanman wrote:

MLSS is NOT the same as Vo2max.

If anything MLSS is the same as LT2/Anaerobic threshold.

Indeed, the VO2max is just above the MLSS, which is approximately 90% of the VO2max.

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

For practical purposes I use the threshold pace as the 1h race pace, or the pace at ex 3.5 mmol when running continuously. In addition one can have a threshold effort for instance when doing shorter reps where the rep pace can be faster than 1h race pace, but the duration is shorter and the mean lactate levels do not exceed for ex 3.5 mmol. For a tempo of 10-15-20 min this is continuous and should relate to the 1h race pace.

Could you or anyone else tell more about measuring blood lactate in training? I know the Ingebrigtsens use it a lot, but how do you actually do that? If you go on a 40 minute light tempo at 2 mmol level, when do you take blood sample? Right after finishing? How long does it take for the lactate to drop substantially? Does it hurt to take a blood sample?

n9 wrote:

Could you or anyone else tell more about measuring blood lactate in training? I know the Ingebrigtsens use it a lot, but how do you actually do that? If you go on a 40 minute light tempo at 2 mmol level, when do you take blood sample? Right after finishing? How long does it take for the lactate to drop substantially? Does it hurt to take a blood sample?

Lactate-steady is reached after 5-8 minutes.

So typically ou can measure it every 10 minutes for your 40 minutes run.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

2x10 minutes at CV is a good, hard workout. Fast runners could do 3x2 miles at CV. To peak for a 10k, you might even do 15-20 minutes continuously at CV as the OP said.

Kipchoge has done 2017 (WR marathon attempt) Fartlek, e.g.

- 18 x (3min@MP, 1 min easy)

- 4 x (10min@MP, 2min easy)

Race specific training.

Isn’t this just 5-15k race pace (depending on how long it takes you to finish)? I feel like a lot of workouts target these intensities especially for athletes training to compete in these events (+1 to 5x1k). But yeah like others have mentioned you can get in more volume by breaking the workout out into intervals.

Also kind of a tangent but I feel like if you are going to use physiology terminology you should be more exact. There are two main lactate thresholds. LT2 is also not a pace, it’s an intensity. Also someone else mentioned that faster than LT2 workouts are equivalent to VO2 max. That also seems not quite right since endurance athletes reach VO2 max at around 5 minutes of all out effort. Very few workouts would ever get to this point because it would require 20+ minute rest to recover enough to do intervals at this intensity.

I’ve noticed a strange phenomenon, maybe it’s just how my workout fit into my rest/recovery cycle but, it’s easier for me to run 4 miles at or below threshold as a single steady state or progression run than to do say 4xmile w/ 1 minute recovery.🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

Goal Races are 8-10k:

Workout 1: Long Run

Workout 2: something at 8k-10k pace. (10 x 1k, 2/2/1/1, 3 x 2mi, etc)

Workout 3: something shorter/faster (400s, 800s, etc), OR something longer/slower (hard 3-6mi run) alternate each week.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

Goal Races are 8-10k:

Workout 1: Long Run

Workout 2: something at 8k-10k pace. (10 x 1k, 2/2/1/1, 3 x 2mi, etc)

Workout 3: something shorter/faster (400s, 800s, etc), OR something longer/slower (hard 3-6mi run) alternate each week.

Alan

Not sure if you were replying to me or not. I alternate between miles or k’s and a shorter ‘threshold’ run (week 1) and 400’s and a longer tempo week 2. The week 2 tempo with warm up/cool down ends up at around 14 miles so that’s also my biweekly long run. Training for 5k.

lexel wrote:

n9 wrote:

Could you or anyone else tell more about measuring blood lactate in training? I know the Ingebrigtsens use it a lot, but how do you actually do that? If you go on a 40 minute light tempo at 2 mmol level, when do you take blood sample? Right after finishing? How long does it take for the lactate to drop substantially? Does it hurt to take a blood sample?

Lactate-steady is reached after 5-8 minutes.

So typically ou can measure it every 10 minutes for your 40 minutes run.

From a practical point of view. Do you run on a treadmill in a lab with someone taking samples (finger/earlobes?) without interrupting or do you stop (accounting for the break time during collection of samples) and the metabolic cost of having to reach the chosen speed?

Potro desbocado wrote:

Johantanman wrote:

MLSS is NOT the same as Vo2max.

If anything MLSS is the same as LT2/Anaerobic threshold.

Indeed, the VO2max is just above the MLSS, which is approximately 90% of the VO2max.

Simply view the images.