Getting frustrated with “jogging” at 95%

Let's old-school it.

Since you like this new gadget of a HRM, use it, but do not check it until you are done with the run. You can view it on whatever program you download your workouts to, or just don't worry about it at all. The point here is that it may help to indicate trends over time in a general sense, but will not dictate the parameters of your workout.

You can run a moderate amount of time and you aren't getting injured so just go run. If you find you have to run/walk, then do so, but run as much of the workout as you can.

Run according to a plan, and the plan can be a general plan of making sure at least every other day (at a minimum) is easy. That would simply be alternating easy days with days where you allow yourself to speed it up according to how you feel.

Got it?

Summary, don't check HRM until after run is over, and run according to feel based on at least one easy day following each moderate to hard day.

Don't increase your mileage too quickly.

Go enjoy your running.

And here is your next challenge: listen to what your body is telling you. Stop trying to dictate to it what it is supposed to do based on your expectations and pre-conceived notions.

Sure, you can push it a bit, but listen to how it responds when you do, and adjust accordingly.

Here is what I have found, and no HRM in the world was going to teach me this: Easy runs actually feel a lot harder than I might think they should. And along the same lines, the hard workouts actually don't feel that much harder!

We can get into why I think that may be but that's for another discussion. The take-away is this: listen to your body and what it is telling you, and learn from that. Open yourself up to some learning. And adapting. And hopefully improving.

Another idea, I would also double check if you HRM is actually linked/connected with your watch, maybe it is not and you are getting wrist readings which are can be notoriously incorrect.

Otherwise, even if you decide to go by feel, I would still recommend using HRM (at least from time to time) so that you could track/see your pace improvement for the same HR throughout time.

jogi wrote:

1) I can’t jog easy for long distances. If I increase weekly mileage much over 20mpw with continues running, I get injured often consistent with what people running hard all the time experience. If I run-walk at 150 bpm, I can significantly increase my mileage. (So the HRM data seems consistent with my suspicion that I am running hard when running by feel.)

2) For 5+ miles, my all-out run-walking PB is faster than my all-out running PB (with no HR limits or monitoring whatsoever).

Frequent injury is not consistent with frequent hard running. It is consistent with being a relatively new, older runner with a weak musculoskeletal structure. Coming back to running in my 40s, it took me over 2 years to get past that phase. It involved increasing my mileage very gradually, a lot of trial and error to figure out the ancillary exercises I needed to avoid injury, and, yes, a lot of jog-walking at times. Spend more time jogging easy for short and medium distances before you try to run long. Your low BMI isn't helping you stay healthy.

As for 2), the explanation is that you're still very untrained, because of 1).

You might need to consult your doctor about overall health and a PT to address the injuries. None of the problems you describe sound like something where a HRM would be all that useful right now.

Get blood work wrote:

You sound reasonably fit to be running much faster, plus your low weight should help out a lot with that. This is assuming the "strength training" you've done is actually strength training and not just putting on clothes and hanging out at the gym. The numbers aren't making sense to me at all, and yea forget about HR at the moment I think something else is going on.

Are you taking any odd-ball supplements? Do you consume a lot of caffeine, especially before you workout? If so I'd stop and see if that helps.

But first, I'd go to your doctor and ask for a complete blood workup. Let him know what you are trying to do, and see if anything come back out of range. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me for you to start anywhere else figuring this out.

Thanks for the suggestions. Answers to your questions:

Strength training: Yes, I use a home gym setup now for weights and resistance training. A year back, I couldn’t do single leg squats, but now I can do many comfortably (though still can’t do pistol squats on left leg yet but that’s more a balance thing). My posterior chain muscles visibly feel bigger as I can feel my pants tighter and have also added 2-3 pounds of weight from like 137’ish to 140’ish since I increased cycling and started running, so I attribute that to leg muscles. I never did “leg days” all my life and used to feel and look like stick figure legs before I started running.

Consumption: Been having one double espresso in the morning and one after lunch for many years now. I take a modest dose of concerta (slow release version of Ritalin) daily that can supposedly increase blood pressure and heart rate “by 3-6 bpm” but my BP is on the lower side (98-115/62-80 systolic/diastolic ranges) and resting HR is in the mid 50s, so again on the lower side of normal. Based on going off of it for a couple days (makes no difference), my guess is that if I go off of it completely (which I can’t afford to), my HR might come down a couple beats but my two problems will still remain:

(1) I don’t have any easy (continuous) running pace (“easy” meaning how it feels like at ~150 bpm);

(2) I’m significantly faster run-walking longer (5+ mi) distances than running, like 9’ pace vs close to 10’.

My most recent blood work a few months back but several months after I started running was all normal, nothing unusual. I asked my doctor about the high HR while running but he just says the usual “different for different people” and doesn’t care about my running (except being generally encouraging of it) unless I tell him I’m in pain.

You're more into data than running.

Get rid of the HRM and go for a run. You are over thinking a very simple sport.

Hmm Caffeine and Amphetamine. Super skinny and obsessed with stats.

Maybe cut down on all that sh!t. Eat some food dude.

I made a thread about a similar recently on here. I'm younger than you, fatter than you, and barely in better shape than you and experiencing high HR readings (wrist). What's the commmon denominator? It's the stims. I take focalin XR, juiced up concerta basically. That has to be driving our HR up even though we are so used to the junk it doesn't register unless we're exerting effort.

My resting HR is 55 bpm and yet a light jog gets me into the 150s according to the garmin. My easy day today (9:12 pace for 3.25 miles) average heartrate was 166 and by the end it was up to 179. Earlier this week I jogged a warmup for 1.5miles at a 11:04 pace. average HR was 147 and maximum 155 bpm.

If I go by my watch ,the majority of my running is done in the 170-180bpm range. Maximum recorded hr is 202 (age 28) and again RHR of 55.

Either our devices are whacked or the stimulants are doing it. Personally I am just running by feel. I don't trust the monitor other than for distance, which seems to check out everytime I run on a measured course.. It also consistently puts my cadence in the 200 spm range. I have a pretty high cadence, but 200 seems absurd for a guy running 9 min miles.

BILL SLOWSKY wrote:

I made a thread about a similar recently on here.

…

Earlier this week I jogged a warmup for 1.5miles at a 11:04 pace. average HR was 147 and maximum 155 bpm.

If I go by my watch ,the majority of my running is done in the 170-180bpm range. Maximum recorded hr is 202 (age 28) and again RHR of 55.

Bill, you sound quite like me. Except I’d absolutely love to have what you have: the ability to jog at an easy pace. For me, slowing from 10’ to 13’ pace takes me down from like 170 or so to 166, so slowing down almost doesn’t help at all unless I put both feet down occasionally.

What is your other similar thread? Thanks.

My thread is over here:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10927163

I've tried the past couple days not drinking any coffee. I knew all along that coffee doesn't mix well with phenidates and can give anxiety /irregular heart if you drink a lot.

I like the taste so I started drinking a cup in the morning, wait 2 or 3 hours before i took the meds. Don't think it works. Even though I can't feel the effects of the coffee by that time the caffeine stays in the system for longer.

I cut it out the past couple days and my HR is down at least 5bpm or so on my runs. Of course knocking the meds out would be the best move if you're willing to do that but I'm not willing to do that just yet. Helps me too much with my work and other life goals at this point.

For you there may be additional issues here based on what you're saying bout the 13 min pace. What is your resting heartrate? How much concerta are you perscribed What is your heartrate just walking at like a 3mph pace?

why don't you guys do yourselves a major (favor), and next time you do one of those slow paces where you are getting high readings, just simply manually take your pulse to verify that you are in fact having a heart beating at that rate?

It's simple: two fingers on your neck does it, count how many beats occur in the time your watch reads 15 seconds, then multiply by 4. You may need to stop while you do this, but for the most part, your heart will still be racing if you do it immediately.

seattle prattle wrote:

why don't you guys do yourselves a major (favor), and next time you do one of those slow paces where you are getting high readings, just simply manually take your pulse to verify that you are in fact having a heart beating at that rate?

It's simple: two fingers on your neck does it, count how many beats occur in the time your watch reads 15 seconds, then multiply by 4. You may need to stop while you do this, but for the most part, your heart will still be racing if you do it immediately.

I'll give it a go though I'm skeptical on my ability to get an accuate reading. I can't feel anything in my neck right now but maybe it's easier my heart is working harder.

BILL SLOWSKY wrote:

seattle prattle wrote:

why don't you guys do yourselves a major (favor), and next time you do one of those slow paces where you are getting high readings, just simply manually take your pulse to verify that you are in fact having a heart beating at that rate?

It's simple: two fingers on your neck does it, count how many beats occur in the time your watch reads 15 seconds, then multiply by 4. You may need to stop while you do this, but for the most part, your heart will still be racing if you do it immediately.

I'll give it a go though I'm skeptical on my ability to get an accuate reading. I can't feel anything in my neck right now but maybe it's easier my heart is working harder.

just sitting here, i couldn't either until i found the spot on my neck kind of right behind the throat or larynx (i think). Anyway, i've done it at intervals workouts and it is much easier then.

BILL SLOWSKY wrote:

I cut it out the past couple days and my HR is down at least 5bpm or so on my runs. Of course knocking the meds out would be the best move if you're willing to do that but I'm not willing to do that just yet. Helps me too much with my work and other life goals at this point.

For you there may be additional issues here based on what you're saying bout the 13 min pace. What is your resting heartrate? How much concerta are you perscribed What is your heartrate just walking at like a 3mph pace?

Thanks for the other thread link. Like you, I can’t cut out concerta (27mg or 18mg some days) either, or the two daily coffees either. Helps me too much.

My resting is ~55, sometimes few lower, sometimes higher. Walking at 16’30” is ~100 bpm, walking at 14’30” is ~115, walking at 13’ is ~137 (the latter two values measured just today). But if I start jogging in terribly stupid form at 13’, heart goes whoop(!) beyond 160 in 3-4 minutes. It’s as if my body gets very stressed unless both feet occasionally touch the ground. Also, anything below 11’ pace feels to me like an unproductive form: it’s not any easier, just slower.

If blood results are fine, it just seems to strange your HR spikes so easily. I'd definitely go back to the doc and talk about your medication and see if there's an alternative. Don't really have any other advice, as my only wacko HR issues we're related to supplements with caffinee.

seattle prattle wrote:

why don't you guys do yourselves a major (favor), and next time you do one of those slow paces where you are getting high readings, just simply manually take your pulse to verify that you are in fact having a heart beating at that rate?

It's simple: two fingers on your neck does it, count how many beats occur in the time your watch reads 15 seconds, then multiply by 4. You may need to stop while you do this, but for the most part, your heart will still be racing if you do it immediately.

Hi Seattle, thanks for all your previous tips. My problem really isn’t HR and I’m happy to forget HR altogether (as I was doing before I started monitoring it). I will do the manual check after a hard run like you suggest just for curiosity.

Whatever I find won’t change the fact that I’m faster run-walking than running even without looking at any device on my body for 5+ mile distances. I’ve done that experiment many times now. The reason is because my body needs periodic breaks to drain out lactate or whatever because it quickly gets stressed within 2-4 minutes of running. Just “go out and run more” hasn’t helped me in many months precisely because when I do that, I’m running hard and long all the time and have been stuck in a plateau of no improvement and injury. I can run 100m in under 15”, 400 in 80”, 800 under 3’10” and can run-walk 10K comfortably under an hour, but my best 10K running time is over 62’.

that is helpful.

Why can't you just slow it way down and run continuously, without a break, and if your heart speeds up, then let it do it's thing, and maybe slow up a little more?

Is that what you call running hard and long?

Come on, just run slower.

Sure, it feels like more work than is necessary, and that happens to me a lot on recovery days, but that is what it is.

I started running around April this year. I noticed in the first two months I was pretty quickly able to improve just run-walking every other day for an hour. Pretty soon I was able to break 6 miles for the hour. Taking about 3 walking/water breaks during the hour while letting the clock continue while I walked.

The interesting thing is it took a long time after that before I was able to jog the whole 6mi without stopping in an hour. Maybe another or month or more after that it took. After about 30-45 minutes I felt like I had to stop, mostly to drink water, and after even 30 seconds of walking I was ready to go faster than before I stopped.

After a couple months that need to walk intermittantly to hit my best times went away for me.

Not sure what any of this means but it's another point that stood out to me as relating to my own experiences with running so far. I think that 800m time says a lot about how weird the situation is. It shows a higher level of fitness than anything else you've mentioned so far.

BILL SLOWSKY wrote:

The interesting thing is it took a long time after that before I was able to jog the whole 6mi without stopping in an hour. Maybe another or month or more after that it took. After about 30-45 minutes I felt like I had to stop, mostly to drink water, and after even 30 seconds of walking I was ready to go faster than before I stopped.

After a couple months that need to walk intermittantly to hit my best times went away for me.

Not sure what any of this means but it's another point that stood out to me as relating to my own experiences with running so far. I think that 800m time says a lot about how weird the situation is. It shows a higher level of fitness than anything else you've mentioned so far.

Interesting. I started out being able to jog 2+ miles continuously last December. By March, I could jog (more like plod) 5+ miles continuously (after losing most of February to an injury). I never tried 10K until this July I think, but knew I could jog 6.2 miles if I could jog 5+ miles regularly. I just thought I was super slow at the 10’30” pace I found for 10K initially, but was shocked to realize soon that my run-walking pace was much faster. I have still not been able to fix that.

My times make no sense to me either. I’m pretty sure I can actually run 800 in 3’ coz just today I meant to do 800m intervals on track and got 3’10” on the first run because I realized I ran faster than I meant to, like closer to all-out rather than saving stamina for many repeat intervals. I’ve never run a mile in under 7’40” but the last time I measured it was over a couple months back, and I seem to have improved my 400 from 100” to 80” since then, so I think I’m probably a good bit faster on the mile now as well now. My 5K PB is still 8’50” pace as of like 3 months’ish back.

seattle prattle said:

that is helpful.

Why can't you just slow it way down and run continuously, without a break, and if your heart speeds up, then let it do it's thing, and maybe slow up a little more?

Is that what you call running hard and long?

Come on, just run slower.

Sure, it feels like more work than is necessary, and that happens to me a lot on recovery days, but that is what it is.

Great, now we are talking. Yes, that is what I’m calling running hard and long because here is what happens when I try to slow down from 10’ pace / 170 bpm: even if I slow down all the way to 13’, I’m still beating at ~165+ bpm. It doesn’t feel that much easier at 11’ or 12’, just slower. And if I continuously run 4-5 miles every day or 5-6 days/week at any pace at all, I can feel tiredness in my legs the next day and can’t seem to maintain it for more than 3-4 weeks without some injury. So I’ve not been able to increase mileage much over 20 mpw in almost a year of running.

With run-walking, I can do 40 mpw running 5+ miles every single day. I can’t help feeling like it’s pointless to run slow at 12’ or slower pace in poor form when I can run-walk comfortably with good run-portion form and with so much lower overall effort at 11’ average pace. What is the 12’ or slower plodding pace doing for me if it’s not reducing the effort on my body by much at all?