cruising usa wrote:
They're not made for the track they're made for the road. Why cannibalize on your own market? The dragonfly can already satisfy the mile-10,000 on the track. They've already introduced another track spike anyways. Why have 3?
What is the other long distance spike they introduced?
I cannot see it being better than the vaporfly.
With nothing in there to stabilise the shoe and aid that forward propulsion like the dragonfly's full length nylon plate or the vaporfly carbon plate it's just a normal shoe.
Williamson wrote:
cruising usa wrote:
They're not made for the track they're made for the road. Why cannibalize on your own market? The dragonfly can already satisfy the mile-10,000 on the track. They've already introduced another track spike anyways. Why have 3?
What is the other long distance spike they introduced?
Vics. The one with the zoom airpod. That design element right theres all you need to know, it tells you that nike is marketing them as "the Vaporflys of the track".
But, like with the Alphafly, pretty much everyone prefers the alternative without the useless airpod (Vaporflys and Dragonflys).
It isn't a normal shoe because it still has the super foam, and the carbon fiber plate isn't really the key to the VF. Will be interesting to see some testing data for this shoe if someone wants to shell out for it.
Anecdotally I've found the Reebok Pro with something close to ZoomX foam pretty comparable to super shoes, even though it lacks a plate and the geometry is nothing special (no rocker, low drop).
Ho Hum wrote:
Anecdotally I've found the Reebok Pro with something close to ZoomX foam pretty comparable to super shoes, even though it lacks a plate and the geometry is nothing special (no rocker, low drop).
I didn't. In doing track workouts focused on 10k races, I could easily hold race pace far longer in the next% than the Reebok Pro.
The new streakfly is essentially an upgraded Streak Lt or Lt5 if you will. Lots of people will get this shoe and love it, but it won't supplant the next% as a race day shoe for most. The streakfly will mostly be a workout shoe for 1500-5000m specialists.
Spiked For Life wrote:
Ho Hum wrote:
Anecdotally I've found the Reebok Pro with something close to ZoomX foam pretty comparable to super shoes, even though it lacks a plate and the geometry is nothing special (no rocker, low drop).
I didn't. In doing track workouts focused on 10k races, I could easily hold race pace far longer in the next% than the Reebok Pro.
The new streakfly is essentially an upgraded Streak Lt or Lt5 if you will. Lots of people will get this shoe and love it, but it won't supplant the next% as a race day shoe for most. The streakfly will mostly be a workout shoe for 1500-5000m specialists.
Agreed, I think that if you want a lower stack super racer, the Takumi Sen 8 is the best option.
Would they be good for a 3000 on a track? The Dragonflies just don’t feel right on me — ankles feel unstable or something I don’t know. They cause all sorts of weird pain in my hip etc the next day after I use them. Would like to try a track shoe other than the Dragonflies with the new foam.
Williamson wrote:
Would they be good for a 3000 on a track? The Dragonflies just don’t feel right on me — ankles feel unstable or something I don’t know. They cause all sorts of weird pain in my hip etc the next day after I use them. Would like to try a track shoe other than the Dragonflies with the new foam.
Most likely. My guess would be that the plate in the dragonfly doesn't work with your mechanics in some way. Do the vaporflys give you the same problem? The Vaporfly stack height is more forgiving for various running forms.
The Reebok Pro has zero stability features and doesn't get in the way of your natural mechanics (whether good or bad). The streakfly has a shank, but it shouldn't be felt or force you to adjust to it.
Williamson wrote:
Would they be good for a 3000 on a track? The Dragonflies just don’t feel right on me — ankles feel unstable or something I don’t know. They cause all sorts of weird pain in my hip etc the next day after I use them. Would like to try a track shoe other than the Dragonflies with the new foam.
They aren't legal for the track due to their stack height.
Try some of the other super spikes like the Adidas or the New Balance. On a recent podcast Nick Willis said that he doesn't like the Nike super spikes either. He prefers the adidas but also spoke highly of the new Saucony spike that will be coming out in a few months.
Ho Hum wrote:
It isn't a normal shoe because it still has the super foam, and the carbon fiber plate isn't really the key to the VF. Will be interesting to see some testing data for this shoe if someone wants to shell out for it.
Anecdotally I've found the Reebok Pro with something close to ZoomX foam pretty comparable to super shoes, even though it lacks a plate and the geometry is nothing special (no rocker, low drop).
I don't buy it sorry.
Maybe you like the feeling of shoes without a plate and the bouncy foam but the vaporfly next% is a different shoe.
No way does it have the same pop without a carbon plate.
ex-runner wrote:
Ho Hum wrote:
It isn't a normal shoe because it still has the super foam, and the carbon fiber plate isn't really the key to the VF. Will be interesting to see some testing data for this shoe if someone wants to shell out for it.
Anecdotally I've found the Reebok Pro with something close to ZoomX foam pretty comparable to super shoes, even though it lacks a plate and the geometry is nothing special (no rocker, low drop).
I don't buy it sorry.
Maybe you like the feeling of shoes without a plate and the bouncy foam but the vaporfly next% is a different shoe.
No way does it have the same pop without a carbon plate.
In my (non-expert) opinion I think it would have a good vertical pop but a mushy toe off and be grossly unstable. Like taking the experience of the invincible and compressing its wide platform onto the vaporfly's footprint. I'm not sure of the validity of this study or whether it's even relevant here but I found it very interesting:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095254621000739nike shill wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
I don't buy it sorry.
Maybe you like the feeling of shoes without a plate and the bouncy foam but the vaporfly next% is a different shoe.
No way does it have the same pop without a carbon plate.
In my (non-expert) opinion I think it would have a good vertical pop but a mushy toe off and be grossly unstable. Like taking the experience of the invincible and compressing its wide platform onto the vaporfly's footprint. I'm not sure of the validity of this study or whether it's even relevant here but I found it very interesting:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095254621000739
It seems like they removed the front-toback stiffness by cutting the plate but kept the plate intact laterally so obviously it isn't the same as no plate, still think it's a cool idea though.
Thanks. I have not tried the Vaporflies.
The stack height rules don’t apply to my level so I could in theory use the Streakflies if they feel good, but I will check out the NB and Adidas and Saucony as well. Of course even the models that have been released are not so easy to find right now.
ex-runner wrote:
Ho Hum wrote:
It isn't a normal shoe because it still has the super foam, and the carbon fiber plate isn't really the key to the VF. Will be interesting to see some testing data for this shoe if someone wants to shell out for it.
Anecdotally I've found the Reebok Pro with something close to ZoomX foam pretty comparable to super shoes, even though it lacks a plate and the geometry is nothing special (no rocker, low drop).
I don't buy it sorry.
Maybe you like the feeling of shoes without a plate and the bouncy foam but the vaporfly next% is a different shoe.
No way does it have the same pop without a carbon plate.
Yet the Next% performs much better than other plated shoes, except the ones that use a similar foam (Metaspeed Sky). Maybe you just need the plate at a certain stack height, but I would question whether the "pop" really means anything for performance.
ex-runner wrote:
Ho Hum wrote:
It isn't a normal shoe because it still has the super foam, and the carbon fiber plate isn't really the key to the VF. Will be interesting to see some testing data for this shoe if someone wants to shell out for it.
Anecdotally I've found the Reebok Pro with something close to ZoomX foam pretty comparable to super shoes, even though it lacks a plate and the geometry is nothing special (no rocker, low drop).
I don't buy it sorry.
Maybe you like the feeling of shoes without a plate and the bouncy foam but the vaporfly next% is a different shoe.
No way does it have the same pop without a carbon plate.
A Nike shoe with just the foam and not plate already exists, doesn't it? The Peg Turbo?
wgehtrh wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
I don't buy it sorry.
Maybe you like the feeling of shoes without a plate and the bouncy foam but the vaporfly next% is a different shoe.
No way does it have the same pop without a carbon plate.
A Nike shoe with just the foam and not plate already exists, doesn't it? The Peg Turbo?
Yeah, but it's half ZoomX half some other foam (is it React?) and is claimed to have durability issues. I love the Peg Turbo 2 though, use it for intervals and treshold.
Williamson wrote:
Thanks. I have not tried the Vaporflies.
The stack height rules don’t apply to my level so I could in theory use the Streakflies if they feel good, but I will check out the NB and Adidas and Saucony as well. Of course even the models that have been released are not so easy to find right now.
It is too bad that Nike might eventually make any money on this (still phantom) shoe. Other companies pay a price when they don't give the consumer - however niche - what they want. They get left behind.
Nike followed the clown racing shoes with the Peg Turbo. So far, so good.
Coincident with that should have been a Streak LT-equivalent with Zoom foam (i.e., Reebok Pro!) and a slightly beefier Streak-equivalent with Zoom foam. What would have been the development costs of both? Twenty bucks ? And both would basically be the continuation of two lines of Nike racing shoes - thinner and thicker - going back 40+ years to the Eagle and Mariah. Not sure what changed in the late 20-teens ?? (.....AND they got rid of the Turbo!!)
Who knows why Nike does what they do? But it's also true that the other companies, save Reebok, didn't fill the gap, either.
They're all dumb? Or I and others are missing something? Or.....?
nike shill wrote:
Spiked For Life wrote:
I didn't. In doing track workouts focused on 10k races, I could easily hold race pace far longer in the next% than the Reebok Pro.
The new streakfly is essentially an upgraded Streak Lt or Lt5 if you will. Lots of people will get this shoe and love it, but it won't supplant the next% as a race day shoe for most. The streakfly will mostly be a workout shoe for 1500-5000m specialists.
Agreed, I think that if you want a lower stack super racer, the Takumi Sen 8 is the best option.
How can you even compare it without ever even having tried it on, let alone done 4-6 sessions in them? That seems silly.
I think some posters misunderstand why the Vaporflys are so good. It's not just the zoomX foam.
Having a shoe made entirely of zoomX foam wont make it automatically better. We've already seen that, and theyre far too mushy without the plate. The Peg Turbo and the Vaporfly are better shoes overall because of the variety of materials they use to make the shoe a bit more firm and bring out the best in that ZoomX foam. The zoomX foam works best in tandem with components that add more rigidity.
So no, it's not a bad thing that the Peg Turbo isnt made entirely out of ZoomX foam, and yes the plate is a big deal.
Nikenikeing wrote:
Williamson wrote:
Thanks. I have not tried the Vaporflies.
The stack height rules don’t apply to my level so I could in theory use the Streakflies if they feel good, but I will check out the NB and Adidas and Saucony as well. Of course even the models that have been released are not so easy to find right now.
It is too bad that Nike might eventually make any money on this (still phantom) shoe. Other companies pay a price when they don't give the consumer - however niche - what they want. They get left behind.
Nike followed the clown racing shoes with the Peg Turbo. So far, so good.
Coincident with that should have been a Streak LT-equivalent with Zoom foam (i.e., Reebok Pro!) and a slightly beefier Streak-equivalent with Zoom foam. What would have been the development costs of both? Twenty bucks ? And both would basically be the continuation of two lines of Nike racing shoes - thinner and thicker - going back 40+ years to the Eagle and Mariah. Not sure what changed in the late 20-teens ?? (.....AND they got rid of the Turbo!!)
Who knows why Nike does what they do? But it's also true that the other companies, save Reebok, didn't fill the gap, either.
They're all dumb? Or I and others are missing something? Or.....?
Yep. It blows my mind that no one is stepping into the nearly vacant low stack low drop racing flat space left open, where all that exists is the streak lt and saucony type a. Both of these are more of 5/10k shoes than distance racers. There used to be several shoes in this space, some aimed at the half to marathon. Since nothing is here, this would be a decent money maker. Instead all companies try to compete by offering inferior versions of what nike already has in the high stack space. I'll bet once the streakfly sells hotcakes, we see a couple companies come out with inferior competitors to it too.
Whelp whatever I guess, money on the table. I'll keep buying streak lt1s and 2s on ebay until then.