Mountain trail races are no joke.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

What distance runner wouldn't think an ultra would be a miserable and grueling event? Thinking it's far less competitive than a marathon and that it's easy, are different things.

The OP was talking about mountain races, not ultras. Some ultras are mountain races but most mountain races are not ultra distance.

Toughest course I have ever been on is Mt Kinabalu. A climb of 7,300 feet in only 5.4 miles. No switchbacks, just straight up on rocky trails and stairs with some scrambling near at top at 13,000 feet. Also, heavy rain is common making the downhill very treacherous in places.

I agree on the shorter mountain races being way tougher. I mostly run ultras and they aren't packed with a ton of elite guy and also the pace is easy to adjust to, the hard part is stomach and handling nutrients on the go. I showed up to a shorter mountain race and got my feelings hurt. Joe gray was there and he along with many others showed me why I stick to ultras! The short races attract a lot of the fast guys who come from competitive background so it's not nearly as easy to win consistently in the short. Gray has been impressive with his list of competitions over the years. Max king as well wowzers

The whole problem with trail running is nearly all the trails are on mountains, because the better terrain is all developed.

In practical terms, noone in their right mind gets from point A to point B by running through the mountains, if there is another route on flat land. So it's a niche skill. When civilization collapses you'll be a guerrilla fighter guarding a hilltop redoubt while the faster runners control the fertile valley below.

dugger wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

What distance runner wouldn't think an ultra would be a miserable and grueling event? Thinking it's far less competitive than a marathon and that it's easy, are different things.

The OP was talking about mountain races, not ultras. Some ultras are mountain races but most mountain races are not ultra distance.

Toughest course I have ever been on is Mt Kinabalu. A climb of 7,300 feet in only 5.4 miles. No switchbacks, just straight up on rocky trails and stairs with some scrambling near at top at 13,000 feet. Also, heavy rain is common making the downhill very treacherous in places.

http://www.adriansprints.com/2011/10/25th-mount-kinabalu-international.html

I still don't know why a competitive distance runner would think a hilly race on a trail would be easy. We ran a couple of races on hilly courses and climbs were a race within a race. We had one with a long climb and the top seemed like a finish line even though we still had to run the downhill.

Trail raced in general are no joke.

I paced my buddy for the last 50k of a 100 mile race, and it SUCKED. It was one of the hardest running experiences of my life, I do respect the ultra world.

HOWEVER. It is incredibly disingenuous to pretend that western states is on the same level as a road major. Marathoning is WAY deeper in the US, there just arent that many dudes really putting in the work to crush ultras, but there are a TON of guys chasing that OTQ or even 2:30 glory. I think that a 2:30 guy, decently trained, could b3 a very good mountain guy, however a 2:30 guy at Boston or Chicago is a hobbyjogger.

trail running is hard. But it isn't in the same UNIVERSE as marathoning as far as depth of field is concerned.

Mountain Races have been around for a while. In the US, people think of Pikes Peak and Mt. Washington out East. In Europe, they've been around since the early 70's, with Mt. Nevis in Britain. First raced, in 1895. I first, raced Pikes Peak in 1976 while in collge. American Chuck Smead, a 2:13 Marathoner first ventured to Switzerland to race the famed Sierre-Zinal 32km race. 1st eestablised in 1974, runner's like Ian Thompson,-GB Ron Hill-GB, Geoff Norman-GB, Kevin Shaw-SA all sub-2:10 marathon men have run it. Indeed these races are brutal as they climb about 900 ft. per mile. I've competed in several 'shorties' in France and Switzerland that are only 6km or less with a vertical climb of well over 1,000ft. per mile. One such event is still run, 'Les Plans Plan Neve' is run late July. This is one of the hardest, with over 1,000 ft. per mile in a 6.4km rocky ascent. When I raced it, I had run a 14:50 5k on the track, and I was a 'Mountain Runner!' So I thought, I got clobbered but still managed to eek out a 51 minute P.R. for the race.

Recently, Americans like Joseph Gray and Pablo Vigil have built a well earned reputation as some of our finest Mountain Men. Both, along Chuck Smead, have won and conquered the often called, "New York City Marathon" of Mountain races Sierre-Zinal. Since, the early days, dating back to the mid 1970's, many other Americans have competed, and even some Pikes Peak winners. They too soon discovered that the Swiss Alps are a different animal. 'Swithchbacks' aren't too common and most of the races go straight up.

Now that Covid has subsided some, check out a running schedule. The races are fiercely competitive. A race in France, 'Marverjols-Mende', is a 24KM race on the roads. MM dates back to the early 1970's as well. Many Olympians, including Mohammed Kedir-Ethiopia, have raced it. The people are fabulous, the food is great and you'r guaranteed to have a great time. I have been forturnate to have raced it on 5 seperate occassions. If interested, contact me and I can give you further details.

Before I depart, with gratitude I salute Chuck Smead for introducing me to these fine races. And congratulations to Pablo Vigil and Joseph Gray for thier outstanding performances. Making other Americans proud!

I think it is very obvious that mountain-ultra-trial races are not as deeply competitive as road marathon majors. I'm going to assume most people would know that as a constant and so it wouldn't even have to be re-stated. It's a sheer numbers game. I also think it's important to distinguish the vast realm of "MUT" (mountain-ultra-trail) and how different these events all can be: There are road ultras like Comrades (most competitive, most prize money and largest) that have some climbing (6500' over 55 miles on an "up year") but are all on pavement. Then there are races as short as 5km all uphill and straight up a mountain. They call them a "Vertical K" because generally you climb 1000m vertical within 5km. Totally different and could be as short as 30-40min on mountain trails so gnarly and steep you have to use your hands to actually grab holds and climb. Then you have a huge difference in "trail-ultras" where something like Western States 100 is a totally different course compared to something like UTMB. Like a really big difference actually. In Europe generally things are more technical and steeper than the trails in the US because you're often dealing with big mountain ranges like the Alps or the Dolomites etc. And there is a lot of history with shorter than ultra distance "mountain and trail" races over there...usually they are some random distance like 16 miles or 22 miles between towns....or you just run up to the top of a mountain and back down....

should be studying 102 wrote:

I paced my buddy for the last 50k of a 100 mile race, and it SUCKED. It was one of the hardest running experiences of my life, I do respect the ultra world.

HOWEVER. It is incredibly disingenuous to pretend that western states is on the same level as a road major. Marathoning is WAY deeper in the US, there just arent that many dudes really putting in the work to crush ultras, but there are a TON of guys chasing that OTQ or even 2:30 glory. I think that a 2:30 guy, decently trained, could b3 a very good mountain guy, however a 2:30 guy at Boston or Chicago is a hobbyjogger.

trail running is hard. But it isn't in the same UNIVERSE as marathoning as far as depth of field is concerned.

Classic video of Jakob getting humbled and smoked by 29 people in a mountain race (he probably should have been DQ'd for receiving assistance):

https://runningmagazine.ca/trail-running/trail-races/jakob-ingebrigtsen-stoltzekleiven-opp/

No joke for sure. Also a lot of fun, a completely different sport. After running mid-D for decades, I lived in Southern Mexico for a decade at altitude. IT was refreshing, and a blast. The best thing was returning to the flatlands in the states for visits and getting that altitude boost when racing my contemporaries.

I lived in Laramie in the late 1990's and ran this trail and many others daily. It is a killer run, and don't forget the 7,000' altitude. I don't think most runners truly understand what 'technical' means when it comes to trail running, but it's nothing like running roads, jeep trails, or bike paths.

People who haven’t raced mountain 100s are especially frustrating to me when they comment on paces. The first 50 miles on mountainous trails isn’t really that hard because you’re running maybe 30 mins slower than your 50 miler race effort. Those next 50 miles are beyond words - you just have to experience it to understand.

Stomach issues, the inability to eat/drink, running for 12 hours on basically no glycogen, running through the night, the list goes on. Mountain trails are tough enough in the daylight, try running them with a headlamp after already putting in 70 miles. Not to mention the crazy changing weather in the mountains, the altitude, and necessity of actually stopping for at least a few minutes at aid stations which means you’re standing still.

Anyone who wants to call 10-12 minute pace easy for the last 30-50 miles of a mountainous 100 is either an elite pro or totally delusional without any respect for the sport. I raced a 2:33 marathon and then lost a 100 miler 5 weeks later by well over an hour to someone who hasn’t even broken 3 in the marathon but was incredibly gritty and consistent. I’m well-trained and have been running ultras for years so it’s not like I didn’t know what i was getting into - the winner was just a much better 100 mile mountain runner on that day. Mile/5k/marathon times don’t matter all that much in the mountains but uneducated people keep wanting to argue that elite pro marathoners would just jump in and destroy everyone.

I do a 50-mile trail ultra every summer that starts and ends a mile from my house. It's really fun TBH and I consider it to be more of an adventuring/trekking event with some running thrown in during the flat stretches.

I cannot understand the appeal of 100+ mile events. It's just a suffer-fest to see who can hold on the longest. Being on your feet for 24+ hours, sleep deprived, dealing with an upset stomache, high risk of injury...

Ultra-race are definitely not easy by any means. However, competitive ultrarunning is a fonking joke.

should be studying 102 wrote:

I paced my buddy for the last 50k of a 100 mile race, and it SUCKED. It was one of the hardest running experiences of my life, I do respect the ultra world.

HOWEVER. It is incredibly disingenuous to pretend that western states is on the same level as a road major. Marathoning is WAY deeper in the US, there just arent that many dudes really putting in the work to crush ultras, but there are a TON of guys chasing that OTQ or even 2:30 glory. I think that a 2:30 guy, decently trained, could b3 a very good mountain guy, however a 2:30 guy at Boston or Chicago is a hobbyjogger.

trail running is hard. But it isn't in the same UNIVERSE as marathoning as far as depth of field is concerned.

What in this post could possibly have led you to think this was comparing ultra or mountain running to road marathon running?

BTW, running 26.2 flat road miles is pretty easy compared to running 5-6 hours in the mountains. Like I can just wake up tomorrow and run 26.2 but I'll bet anything you can't wake up tomorrow and run R2R (just one way - 21 miles) in under 5 hours.

Welcome to Squamish wrote:

It's a different sport.

It isnt the trail running aspect per se, it is this kind of thinking and the potential idea that a subset of underachieving lollygaggers suddenly consider themselves elite in their odd corner of the sport.

Why cant you guys just go trail running and love it? Why do you come here to tell people it is a different sport. It isnt. So stop.

It's exercise It's training. It's nothing more, nothing less. Can be awesome by itself. Enjoy the run.

oqallmnvzzqp wrote:

Welcome to Squamish wrote:

It's a different sport.

It isnt the trail running aspect per se, it is this kind of thinking and the potential idea that a subset of underachieving lollygaggers suddenly consider themselves elite in their odd corner of the sport.

Why cant you guys just go trail running and love it? Why do you come here to tell people it is a different sport. It isnt. So stop.

It's exercise It's training. It's nothing more, nothing less. Can be awesome by itself. Enjoy the run.

Right. So by that logic Kipchoge is a garbage runner because he's super slow in the 400, 200, and 100. I mean it's a different sport than marathon running or 5k 10k and those guys couldn't beat a freshman in 100m.

Welcome to Squamish wrote:

Newbury Park? wrote:

You have not run a mountain race until you have run the Jelm Mountain race in Wyoming. It's different than most other mountain races because it's not the typical slow ultra pace spread out over 50 or 100 miles. It's all out 10ish mile effort but an insane ascent and descent. It will destroy you.

http://highplainsharriers.org/jelm/

Even the 2021 winner for Leadville Trail 100 got humbled in the 2020 version of the Jelm race.

This actually isn't very impressive compared to the Squamish 50k.

Jelm Mountain: 2000 feet of gain and 2000 feet of descent in 10 miles.

Squamish 50k: 8500 feet of gain and 9000 feet of descent in 50k (27 miles).

Squamish 23k: 3300 feet of gain and 3900 feet of descent in 23k (14 miles).

Americans are so cute.

http://squamish50.com/

Hard Rock 100, Ouray Colorado, = 33,000 ft of elevation gain & loss for 100 miles. ......At an average elevation of 11,000 ft above sea level.

You Canucks are cute too

Of course they are hard. Nobody is disputing that. They just aren't competitive. There are some talented fit runners, far less than on the road by orders of magnitude.

It is a different sport. When I was doing triathlons (primarily off road with mountain biking and trail running), I ran and won a number of trail races as I had trained in the mountains since I was 15. That being said, I acknowledge that mountain running is nowhere near as competitive as track or road running. You can enjoy the MUT stuff, but you need to be realistic about the level of competition. When there are pretty much no Africans or nationally competitive track athletes in the field, it is disingenuous to act like one is competing against the best the world has to offer. MUT races are like the major sports leagues before they had any black athletes.