786fgcj wrote:
It would be simple to convert light poles or whatever.
But that's not my point. Anyone saying wiring a city for car charging would be impossible, or cost-prohibitive, apparently is blind. You know there were cable cars all over the place once upon a time, or gas lamps, not just on streets, but in everyone's houses? And once upon a time homes were not wired for electricity, or phones, or broadband. Funny how this works, isn't it?
This.
Poll Yes or No.
On August 24, 2026 more than 50% of the streets in NYC, LA, BOS and SF will be wired so people can charge their EVs with about the same effort it takes now to keep a gas tank full?
I say no a million times no. I'd actually bet up to $100 no.
agip wrote:
Poll Yes or No.
On August 24, 2026 more than 50% of the streets in NYC, LA, BOS and SF will be wired so people can charge their EVs with about the same effort it takes now to keep a gas tank full?
I say no a million times no. I'd actually bet up to $100 no.
5 years is VERY different from "never" as you have been saying
But still. One charging station per every 2 blocks isn't unreasonable for some neighborhoods. I'd be careful what you predict.
Harambe wrote:
agip wrote:
Poll Yes or No.
On August 24, 2026 more than 50% of the streets in NYC, LA, BOS and SF will be wired so people can charge their EVs with about the same effort it takes now to keep a gas tank full?
I say no a million times no. I'd actually bet up to $100 no.
5 years is VERY different from "never" as you have been saying
But still. One charging station per every 2 blocks isn't unreasonable for some neighborhoods. I'd be careful what you predict.
A new york city block might have 100 cars parked around it. One charging station? This is like an absurdist dream. How exactly would the logistics of one charger every 2 blocks work? How would everyone get their juice overnight?
As for 5 years, I'm just trying to find a number .
agip wrote:
A new york city block might have 100 cars parked around it. One charging station? This is like an absurdist dream. How exactly would the logistics of one charger every 2 blocks work? How would everyone get their juice overnight?
As for 5 years, I'm just trying to find a number .
"same effort to keep a tank of gas full" implies a fill up once every 1 or 2 weeks. There's maybe 40 cars on a NY city block (not a long one). Given 14 nights in a 2 week period and 2 chargers per station that's over half the cars charged... so we are actually pretty close!
You are clearly being overly pessimistic. This has convinced me that we could accommodate 100% EV drivers in a major city in 1 year if we are just willing to convert a few lampposts!
Agip, can you imagine the effort it took to put gas stations everywhere?
They can do this with charging stations.
Except it’s easier to supply electricity than gas.
agip wrote:
Poll Yes or No.
On August 24, 2026 more than 50% of the streets in NYC, LA, BOS and SF will be wired so people can charge their EVs with about the same effort it takes now to keep a gas tank full?
I say no a million times no. I'd actually bet up to $100 no.
If the infrastructure bill passes, then yes, it will happen. Chargers will be just about everywhere in 2026.
And charging will be less than the effort to keep a gas tank full.
With gas you have to go somewhere out of the way, possibly wait your turn, breathe in noxious fumes, get gasoline on your hands, and spend five minutes watching the cost go up and up and up.
With an EV, you just park where you normally would and plug it in. It's no more effort than charging your cell phone.
And don't forget charging at work. Lots more employers will adding chargers as a perk to their employees. Many already do.
Fat hurts wrote:
Harambe wrote:
Nah, charging can easily be built into parking garages and city blocks could be wired with chargers should the demand be high enough.
Most parking garages near me already have some to dozens of EV charging spots.
Correct. As I have pointed out to agip before, a lot of people who park on the street or in garages already have EVs. So it's definitely a solvable problem.
And yes, I generally think that if you buy a new gas car you are an idiot. You will lose a lot of money because they are expensive to fuel and maintain. Plus, they are quickly becoming obsolete. Nobody will want a used gas car and you will get killed on depreciation.
LOL as you are way off on this...unless you are being an ignoramus? Electric cars won't be the future, believe me or not, I don't care. Yes, the govt is throwing jillions at the program---I work for the big 3---and it simply won't work. I don't know how old you are, I'm 33, but mark this post as electric is not happening. The logic of why not is so simple that explaining it would make you feel like a 2nd grader at best.
P.s. I have 2 friends with Volts. They've had them for 9 years! Now, they regret it.
no way Fatty wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
Correct. As I have pointed out to agip before, a lot of people who park on the street or in garages already have EVs. So it's definitely a solvable problem.
And yes, I generally think that if you buy a new gas car you are an idiot. You will lose a lot of money because they are expensive to fuel and maintain. Plus, they are quickly becoming obsolete. Nobody will want a used gas car and you will get killed on depreciation.
LOL as you are way off on this...unless you are being an ignoramus? Electric cars won't be the future, believe me or not, I don't care. Yes, the govt is throwing jillions at the program---I work for the big 3---and it simply won't work. I don't know how old you are, I'm 33, but mark this post as electric is not happening. The logic of why not is so simple that explaining it would make you feel like a 2nd grader at best.
Please enlighten us. I have a lot of money riding on this. If you can convince me then I'll need to sell my Tesla shares.
no way Fatty wrote:
P.s. I have 2 friends with Volts. They've had them for 9 years! Now, they regret it.
Why?
no way Fatty wrote:
P.s. I have 2 friends with Volts. They've had them for 9 years! Now, they regret it.
Regretting a car purchase after nine years is a kinda contradictory as most cars are in use only what... 10-12 years by their primary owner. Less?
no way Fatty wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
Correct. As I have pointed out to agip before, a lot of people who park on the street or in garages already have EVs. So it's definitely a solvable problem.
And yes, I generally think that if you buy a new gas car you are an idiot. You will lose a lot of money because they are expensive to fuel and maintain. Plus, they are quickly becoming obsolete. Nobody will want a used gas car and you will get killed on depreciation.
LOL as you are way off on this...unless you are being an ignoramus? Electric cars won't be the future, believe me or not, I don't care. Yes, the govt is throwing jillions at the program---I work for the big 3---and it simply won't work. I don't know how old you are, I'm 33, but mark this post as electric is not happening. The logic of why not is so simple that explaining it would make you feel like a 2nd grader at best.
No chance. I could understand the pessimism in 2009 or something. Too many rapid tech improvements in the last decade. The big 3 are behind the times anyway, so your viewpoint is not very surprising. You have vested interest in EV not working... or being very delayed.
no way Fatty wrote:
P.s. I have 2 friends with Volts. They've had them for 9 years! Now, they regret it.
If they regretted their purchase, they wouldn’t keep it for 9 years.
agip wrote:
Precious Roy wrote:
The correct answer is that people living in dense urban areas should only need to charge when they commute outside the city and should be using public transportation to make short trips inside the city. A transition to EVs is meaningless if there isn't also a transition to using more public transportation. EVs still carry a pretty big carbon footprint and are a tremendously inefficient way to transport people compared to well used busses and trains. If the plan is to just transition to EVs with no shift to public transit, there is really no point in transitioning to EVs.
If people living in big cities use public transportation as their primary means of getting around the city and leave their EVs for trips to the grocery, Target and trips out of the city, the charging burden will be minimal. And people who commute to the burbs for work can charge in the burbs where it is easier to build charging stations.
S
Soviet Kommisar: After the revolution everyone will have strawberries and cream!
Soviet Comrade; But I don't like strawberries and cream.
SK: BUT YOU WILL LIKE STRAWBERRIES AND CREAM!!!!
Point is that this kind of diktat of what people should do...doesn't take into consideration humanity. In NYC millions of cars move every day. Your saying what should and shouldn't happen is just dreaming of idealism. Delivery trucks gonna deliver, taxis gonna taxi, commuters gonna commute in their cars.
I mean, do many people actually want to drive in crowded cities? If you look at the modal share data for large cities it's basically just cities in the US and Canada that have over 50% of their work commutes done by car, so it seems like the problem is more lack of good infrastructure than human nature.
Given that electric cars are still pretty bad for the environment, will cost taxpayers a lot of time and money due to increased weight leading to increased road maintenance, still kill people, and still contribute to hostile urban design, I'd much rather see US cities focus on getting their transport shares in line with the rest of the world than continue to hype electric cars as a solution to climate issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_shareHarambe wrote:
no way Fatty wrote:
LOL as you are way off on this...unless you are being an ignoramus? Electric cars won't be the future, believe me or not, I don't care. Yes, the govt is throwing jillions at the program---I work for the big 3---and it simply won't work. I don't know how old you are, I'm 33, but mark this post as electric is not happening. The logic of why not is so simple that explaining it would make you feel like a 2nd grader at best.
No chance. I could understand the pessimism in 2009 or something. Too many rapid tech improvements in the last decade. The big 3 are behind the times anyway, so your viewpoint is not very surprising. You have vested interest in EV not working... or being very delayed.
I drive an EV. For $100 in fuel, I get about 5,500 miles. If I spent $100 on gas for a car that gets 30 MPG, I'd get less than 900 miles. Maintenance is cheaper on my car too. Brakes don't wear out and fewer moving parts in the vehicle. At the end of this debate, economics will win.
Fat hurts wrote:
Harambe wrote:
Nah, charging can easily be built into parking garages and city blocks could be wired with chargers should the demand be high enough.
Most parking garages near me already have some to dozens of EV charging spots.
Correct. As I have pointed out to agip before, a lot of people who park on the street or in garages already have EVs. So it's definitely a solvable problem.
And yes, I generally think that if you buy a new gas car you are an idiot. You will lose a lot of money because they are expensive to fuel and maintain. Plus, they are quickly becoming obsolete. Nobody will want a used gas car and you will get killed on depreciation.
I am not in the market for a car right now, but that could happen at the drop of a hat (accident, big repair on my 10-year-old CRV that I don't want to do (because I WOULD like a new car after all). If I needed a new car in the near term that I planned to take on longer trips, I absolutely would buy a gas car.
When charging stations are ubiquitous, or range is seriously far or there are battery exchange stations like there are gas stations, or batteries are charged while driving...THEN I will buy an electric car...and I'm certainly no idiot.
As far as money goes, Fats, that's not an issue for a LOT of people. I am well beyond needing to care about the total cost of ownership of any car I would want to buy.
So, if I were you, I would be pushing these things:
1) Performance is much better.
2) Fewer things to go wrong (not as a cost thing, but as a "having to deal with it" thing).
3) Overall pollution is less (counting pollution created in manufacturing and then creating the electricity).
Flagpole wrote:
Fat hurts wrote:
Correct. As I have pointed out to agip before, a lot of people who park on the street or in garages already have EVs. So it's definitely a solvable problem.
And yes, I generally think that if you buy a new gas car you are an idiot. You will lose a lot of money because they are expensive to fuel and maintain. Plus, they are quickly becoming obsolete. Nobody will want a used gas car and you will get killed on depreciation.
I am not in the market for a car right now, but that could happen at the drop of a hat (accident, big repair on my 10-year-old CRV that I don't want to do (because I WOULD like a new car after all). If I needed a new car in the near term that I planned to take on longer trips, I absolutely would buy a gas car.
When charging stations are ubiquitous, or range is seriously far or there are battery exchange stations like there are gas stations, or batteries are charged while driving...THEN I will buy an electric car...and I'm certainly no idiot.
As far as money goes, Fats, that's not an issue for a LOT of people. I am well beyond needing to care about the total cost of ownership of any car I would want to buy.
So, if I were you, I would be pushing these things:
1) Performance is much better.
2) Fewer things to go wrong (not as a cost thing, but as a "having to deal with it" thing).
3) Overall pollution is less (counting pollution created in manufacturing and then creating the electricity).
I push those things too. But most people do care about total cost of ownership.
The best way to convince someone is to let them drive a Tesla. It is far beyond anything else on the market in both performance and features. As Tesla sells more and more, everyone who has one shows it to their friends. And then the friends buy one. My next door neighbor just ordered one last week after seeing mine. Tesla doesn't need to advertise because the product sells itself.
But we need the other auto makers to step up. People need more choices.
I don’t have an EV and likely won’t get one anytime soon.
I bought a regular car last year.
But range or charging would be no issue for me.
Looking back the last couple of years, charging my vehicle at my house would have been all I needed. I had some 100 mike trips, but EVs can handle that easily.
I would never have to stop at a gas or charging station.
No oil changes.
I did rent a vehicle recently for larger people capacity for a trip. I still could do that if need be.
The only thing preventing me from having one now is choice and price.
That is evolving.
If I liked the car, it would be nice to not have vehicle emissions.