Threshold training in disguise

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Formerly present in Kenya wrote:

Yo, lying idiot, you are not teaching him anything, you arrogant turd.

Jon Arne already said he know lactate can be (re)used for energy production.

Pay attention to what people write and leave you massive ego at the door.

Well....watch your tongue! ;) He wrote lactate IS a biproduct in the energy process,but also a source of fuel. The correct is to write lactate is a product in the energy process that comes to react with a biproduct and recycle new energy. A big difference!

Watch your tongue? Who are you talking to, idiot? I am not your son.

And learn (maybe your athletes will not fail constantly if you learn something): LACTATE IS A BIPRODUCT OF THE ENERGY PRODUCTION PROCESS. Understood? And... IT IS ALSO A SOURCE OF FUEL. Understood?

So Jon Arne knows this and you, as usual, are behaving like a narcissistic jerk.

Roughly, 2mmol/l is marathon intensity and 3mmol/l is half-marathon intensity. However this is quite general and there are several individual differences. The Ingebrigtsen treshold work is most likely more moderate than treshold. Treshold is slightly above 3mmol/l.

The reason they can mantain such a high volume of "treshold" is because they basically always run moderate, and rarely "AT" treshold. And i doubt Jakob does 1k reps at 2:40 at this intensity. I know he has the capacity to do so, but the mechanical forces that occur at such a pace will certainly increase the risk of injuries. Therefore, i suspect that Jakob does most of his so-called treshold workouts at/or below 2mmol/l. The pace is most likely around 2:50-2:55 pr/km (in 1k intervals).

Formerly present in Kenya wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Well....watch your tongue! ;) He wrote lactate IS a biproduct in the energy process,but also a source of fuel. The correct is to write lactate is a product in the energy process that comes to react with a biproduct and recycle new energy. A big difference!

Watch your tongue? Who are you talking to, idiot? I am not your son.

And learn (maybe your athletes will not fail constantly if you learn something): LACTATE IS A BIPRODUCT OF THE ENERGY PRODUCTION PROCESS. Understood? And... IT IS ALSO A SOURCE OF FUEL. Understood?

So Jon Arne knows this and you, as usual, are behaving like a narcissistic jerk.

I`M GLAD THAT YOU AREN`T MY SON!! TRY LEARN HOW TO DISCUSS AT THE LRC WITHOUT INSULTING PEOPLE!!! I said watch your tongue because you call me idiot and things like that. And try to learn modern physiology where we know that LACTATE IS A PRODUCT IN THE ENERGY PROCESS THAT COMES TO REACT WITH A BIPRODUCT TO RECYCLE NEW ENERGY.Capisci? LACTATE ( If trained proper ability to use it more effective) IS THE RUNNERS VERY BEST FRIEND!!!

to me its more subthreshold work, but falls within a threshold range. i havent seen much evidence of him doing vo2 max work tbh. just a lot of threshold and some race pace. the old principle of working smarter and not harder - doing less effort to get a similar desired effect with minimal fatigue allowing you add more volume at threshold. if you dont have a lactometer it seems reasonable to target 85-90% of max HR (never going above 90% on any reps) during the on portions to get the desired effect. targeting pace and youll likely go overboard.

Sweetheart, darling, my wonderful Swedish friend. Lactate IS a biproduct of the aerobic energy production system in the human body.

So please, be so kind and take you silly definitions to some another place because Jon Arne already knows the facts, and you, oh so kind, are trying too hard and failing to share good information.

You are ignorant but that's not your fault. You actually deserve a medal for trying.

And now, my darling, sweetie, esteemed Swedish friend, can you please leave this thread to people who know the subject?

Thank you very much. Your effort is appreciated.

And remember, you shouldn't offer advice on coaching because your coaching is poo-poo. Capisci?

Don't be offended please, my sensitive lotus flower.

I hope you have a nice summer evening in your lovely Swedish home.

Vaffanculo.

Part of the reason you are having trouble understanding it is you've been indoctrinated w/ outdated and inaccurate perspectives. All those terms you toss around should be rethought, or tossed.

Your last sentence explains everything you need to learn really, varied effort work which, with short rests, blends into something of a steady state. Of course steady state is also a misnomer as well, but that doesn't alter the overarching point. Yes recruitment patterns and adaptations vary from the classical threshold (which was outdated terminollogy 30 years ago)

Basically looking for quality work without exhaustion while also managing a productive volume.

Good luck w/ your training.

Konfuzi wrote:

Alternate between a 40 min tempo run (at marathon pace), 1k reps at 10k pace with 200m recovery and a 90min long run with the last few miles at tempo pace with a few days of easy running between each and you’ll reach your goal in a couple months more that likely.

THIS IS THE BEST TRAINING.

It's what I do most the year, apart from when peaking for a marathon. Otherwise, stick to this.

Based on below paper the hightest lactate removal happens not at lactate threshold but at an intensity a little bit lower. Around 10 % lower. We train lactate removal. So for me is, what Ingebrigson does, spot on.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23558389/

Oh crikey Moses. The highest rate of Lactate oxidation is Maximal Lactate Steady State, MLSS, which in Oxygen Kinetic terms is Maximal Oxygen uptake, VO2max.

It depends on what you mean by the term 'Lactate clearance' because accumulated Lactate is also returned to the Liver and the Muscle cells to be reconverted to Liver Glycogen and Muscle Glycogen. The former is called the Cori Cycle or Liver Gluconeogenesis and the latter is Muscle Gluconeogenesis.

I think lactate clearance (to redistribute and use for energy) is something I can train in a lot of different ways, but mostly at threshold and faster running. As long as I produce lactate at elevated levels, I also train this.

57372625 wrote:

Roughly, 2mmol/l is marathon intensity and 3mmol/l is half-marathon intensity. However this is quite general and there are several individual differences. The Ingebrigtsen treshold work is most likely more moderate than treshold. Treshold is slightly above 3mmol/l.

The reason they can mantain such a high volume of "treshold" is because they basically always run moderate, and rarely "AT" treshold. And i doubt Jakob does 1k reps at 2:40 at this intensity. I know he has the capacity to do so, but the mechanical forces that occur at such a pace will certainly increase the risk of injuries. Therefore, i suspect that Jakob does most of his so-called treshold workouts at/or below 2mmol/l. The pace is most likely around 2:50-2:55 pr/km (in 1k intervals).

It is from quite reliable sources I assume 2.40 is right. He has a threshold pace at or lower than 2.50. Remember, that he runs 5k track in pace 2.34. 2.40 would not be impossible. He also runs 20x90s on treadmill with 30s rest at a pace 5k/3k (3k pace for min is 2.30 max) So I expect he runs his 6x5 @around 3 and not more. He is the fastest in his training group and also the one with an Olympic gold

no excuses wrote:

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

There is evidence that the older the more speed and power is important, so I do not think the same principles as young runners apply to a 50 yo.

Yes they do. I'm older than you and I know that if I want to run my best times when I'm 60, I will need to run a lot to improve my endurance.

You're making excuses not to do more volume.

No I am not really trying to avoid volume. I base this on science of aging. I also focus on someting I am weak at and this motivates me. It is very interesting to see what kind of speed improvements I can manage in a quite short timeframe and how that feels, It actually feels very good and it has helped me with running form and finish kick. Science says it is clear that as we age we loose fast muscle fibres first. Use it or loose it, so I do not intend to train like a 20 yo that needs to develop his aerobic capacity and can just touch on his fast fibres with some 100 or 200m and then run fast. Of course, endurance is key, but. There is also science saying that the faster type 2b fibres can be efficiently being trained at much faster paces than threshold down to 5k. That is also interesting. For sure I lack running economy and running form since I did NOT run on the road and track when training high volumes in my young days. I need to practice fast running to excel

So what is your wekly kilometrage?

no excuses wrote:

So what is your wekly kilometrage?

I aim at 60km (5.5 h) on road and trails combined, but I crosstrain with + 2-3 hours cycling (50-80km)

So I try to train 7-8 hours a week for endurance.

More than that of running really do not feel nice for the legs and I am not motivated using more time than that.

How fast can you run 400m?

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

no excuses wrote:

So what is your wekly kilometrage?

I aim at 60km (5.5 h) on road and trails combined, but I crosstrain with + 2-3 hours cycling (50-80km)

So I try to train 7-8 hours a week for endurance.

More than that of running really do not feel nice for the legs and I am not motivated using more time than that.

50 yrs old and going for sub 40 10 K. Do not train as a pro. But as a happy amateur. 60 K running a week more than enough. No intervals, run every day as you feel and put in some speed. One 3 K every week close to max and that's it. Throw the science out of the window.

KaareV wrote:

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

I aim at 60km (5.5 h) on road and trails combined, but I crosstrain with + 2-3 hours cycling (50-80km)

So I try to train 7-8 hours a week for endurance.

More than that of running really do not feel nice for the legs and I am not motivated using more time than that.

50 yrs old and going for sub 40 10 K. Do not train as a pro. But as a happy amateur. 60 K running a week more than enough. No intervals, run every day as you feel and put in some speed. One 3 K every week close to max and that's it. Throw the science out of the window.

Don’t be reasonable! Joe Ann doesn’t like it!

KaareV wrote:

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

I aim at 60km (5.5 h) on road and trails combined, but I crosstrain with + 2-3 hours cycling (50-80km)

So I try to train 7-8 hours a week for endurance.

More than that of running really do not feel nice for the legs and I am not motivated using more time than that.

50 yrs old and going for sub 40 10 K. Do not train as a pro. But as a happy amateur. 60 K running a week more than enough. No intervals, run every day as you feel and put in some speed. One 3 K every week close to max and that's it. Throw the science out of the window.

For a guy that has trained his whole life and always enjoyed running fast I see no point in skipping fun sessions. Science is clear that regardless of age, intensity is king, as long as the recovery is good enough.

I think 50min of running a day is enough. 60 is no prob, but then the tendons starts to tell me the day after. Cycling in addition feels nice.

I dont really try to break 40, I try to prevent from exceeding 40 too early.

The main thing is that this is my passion, it has always been. I would as Konfuzi says, not like it :-)

Joe - what are your lifetime PR’s after 35 years and what does a week of training look like for you???? If you can’t run an hour easy without pain, I doubt any sort of quality is smart. You should probably start there. Easy 60 mins every day for a couple months and build up to a 90 min long run. Then add in a marathon paced tempo run, then maybe *1* session a week of reps/intervals faster assuming you’ve leaned to recover from the tempo and LR. For you, no need to run faster that HM-10k pace. Don’t over complicate something simple.