Elliot would tell people “call me back when you’ve done 100mpw” and get them some strength in xc season. They would run those two workouts; along with some others (I have an idea from Liquori’s training book of the other ones)
And yea they probably hammered down on some road runs too, raced on the weekend, then had a shorter long run on Sunday and started it over Monday
Can you enlighten me on some of the others?
Maybe I can use some.
fastboy77 wrote:
Yeah I assume they ran quality mileage too.
Do you know if Jumbo was an advocate for big mileage?
I read a couple interviews with Walsh and based on what he said he'd have been doing 100-120 a week. I'm pretty sure Tom Donnelly told me he was doing around 100 in college.
I think this .pdf has the same info that Marty's training book had. My undersatmding is that it is a cross between Jumbo and Lydiard.
Phase Three has a lot of 400s.
What do you do in training besides threshold and speed/pace?
HRE wrote:
fastboy77 wrote:
Yeah I assume they ran quality mileage too.
Do you know if Jumbo was an advocate for big mileage?
I read a couple interviews with Walsh and based on what he said he'd have been doing 100-120 a week. I'm pretty sure Tom Donnelly told me he was doing around 100 in college.
Yup, Chris Mason, Tom Donnelly and Dick Buerkle all volunteered to me that they ran about 100 miles a week. Much of it was at 7:00 pace. Dick would talk about doing his "shuffle" runs where he didn't lift up his knees very much, just kind of shuffling along at 7:00 pace. We spent some time together at Mather's Running Camp where we would go out on these runs, with him demonstrating his running form. He also had his higher knee form that he used for faster runs.
I am not saying that is all they did, but it was a good part of their training program. Keep in mind, many of those guys from that era were pretty good milers and up and even 880 runners (Patrick) and most of their xc races were 5 miles and not 10k.
Larry James, also trained by Jumbo told me he never ran anything longer than 300 yds in workouts.
All those guys did a lot more racing than guys of this era.
GettingFasterDude wrote:
fastboy77 wrote:
His ONLY two workouts that he ever made his athletes do were:
6 x 400 and 10 x 400 (400 jog)
Source: malmo
This is genius though. It looks simple but it's all that is needed.
Lactate Threshold: it improves lactate threshold because during the reps you build up a lot of lactate, but the jog rests allow for that to be cleared from the blood via the skeletal muscle pump. In turn, your body becomes more efficient at removing lactate and your threshold increases.
Running Efficiency: by running at very fast speeds with good form, and then essentially fully recovering and doing it again, your body is becoming more accustomed and comfortable to running at high speeds. The result is you become more efficient at high speeds.
Then all of the mileage runs aside from speed work increases your aerobic capacity because you are running slow enough that your lungs learn to accommodate the acquisition of more oxygen. This transfers over to faster running. Also, the mileage would increase blood flow to the exercising muscles via heart strengthening and subsequently the increase in stroke volume, but also the blossoming of new capillaries (the microscopic blood vessels that feed tissues nutrients) through capillarization. Furthermore, mileage runs would still increase the number of mitochondria (called mitochondrial density), and in turn more adenosine triphosphate would be produced when the terminal electron acceptor oxygen "pulls" nicotinamide adenine diphosphate's electrons through the collection of membrane proteins, creating a buildup of hydrogen ions that moves back down it's gradient, and in the process changes the confirmation of ATP synthase such that ADP is "forced" together with inorganic phosphate, creating ATP.
Point being:
Compartmentalization is crap in my opinion. Jumbo's quarters could work on multiple aspects of running, such as those listed above, and probably even VO2 max as well. I think many other workouts are similar as well.
No doubt that RE, LT, and VO2 Max are important physiological running variables that drive success, I just don't agree that they need to be isolated and worked on independently. I think they can all "blend" together and be worked on simultaneously, as the body works in sync anyway.
Thoughts?
I just read Frank Shorter's book and this is basically what he did (the book is My Marathon: Reflections on a Gold Medal Life, and it's excellent). He says his two pillars of training were big mileage at recovery pace (120/wk average) and 5K-type intervals, 200's and 400's. He makes no mention of tempo, threshold, steady state, progression or other types of runs. I'd say it worked pretty good considering it got him an Olympic gold medal and to 2:10, pre-PEDs/pre-super shoes. Give the Frank Shorter of '72 some super shoes and 2021 chemistry, and 2:00-2:05 wouldn't be out of the question.
And don't say Shorter didn't have to deal with East Africans. They had already been on the scene for over a decade (Abeve Bikila, Mamo Walde, others)
Shorter also ran lots of low key road races. Those were probably his tempo runs.
fastboy77 wrote:
His ONLY two workouts that he ever made his athletes do were:
6 x 400 and 10 x 400 (400 jog)
Source: malmo
This is genius though. It looks simple but it's all that is needed.
Lactate Threshold: it improves lactate threshold because during the reps you build up a lot of lactate, but the jog rests allow for that to be cleared from the blood via the skeletal muscle pump. In turn, your body becomes more efficient at removing lactate and your threshold increases.
Running Efficiency: by running at very fast speeds with good form, and then essentially fully recovering and doing it again, your body is becoming more accustomed and comfortable to running at high speeds. The result is you become more efficient at high speeds.
Then all of the mileage runs aside from speed work increases your aerobic capacity because you are running slow enough that your lungs learn to accommodate the acquisition of more oxygen. This transfers over to faster running. Also, the mileage would increase blood flow to the exercising muscles via heart strengthening and subsequently the increase in stroke volume, but also the blossoming of new capillaries (the microscopic blood vessels that feed tissues nutrients) through capillarization. Furthermore, mileage runs would still increase the number of mitochondria (called mitochondrial density), and in turn more adenosine triphosphate would be produced when the terminal electron acceptor oxygen "pulls" nicotinamide adenine diphosphate's electrons through the collection of membrane proteins, creating a buildup of hydrogen ions that moves back down it's gradient, and in the process changes the confirmation of ATP synthase such that ADP is "forced" together with inorganic phosphate, creating ATP.
Point being:
Compartmentalization is crap in my opinion. Jumbo's quarters could work on multiple aspects of running, such as those listed above, and probably even VO2 max as well. I think many other workouts are similar as well.
No doubt that RE, LT, and VO2 Max are important physiological running variables that drive success, I just don't agree that they need to be isolated and worked on independently. I think they can all "blend" together and be worked on simultaneously, as the body works in sync anyway.
Thoughts?
I think you're missing what really matters here -- it's the coach more than the workouts. Elliott had a lot of experience watching his runners do 10 x 400, and understood what he wanted to see from a runner at a point in the season. I don't think he was targeting energy systems.
fastboy77 wrote:
Sorry, I misunderstood.
Interested to know - what other workouts did his guys do?
No need to apologize. You're just posting what you think I said without the full context. I've posted the 6x400 10x400 workouts many times before without the explanation.
As far as 'tempos' go, that was a Jack Daniels term and nobody had ever heard of him yet. Everyone was doing tempos long before Daniel's.
As I understand it was The Duke who led had ten miles at Nova. Of course Marie ran them as well -- every day as the legend goes.
chiles wrote:
fastboy77 wrote:
His ONLY two workouts that he ever made his athletes do were:
6 x 400 and 10 x 400 (400 jog)
Source: malmo
This is genius though. It looks simple but it's all that is needed.
Lactate Threshold: it improves lactate threshold because during the reps you build up a lot of lactate, but the jog rests allow for that to be cleared from the blood via the skeletal muscle pump. In turn, your body becomes more efficient at removing lactate and your threshold increases.
Running Efficiency: by running at very fast speeds with good form, and then essentially fully recovering and doing it again, your body is becoming more accustomed and comfortable to running at high speeds. The result is you become more efficient at high speeds.
Then all of the mileage runs aside from speed work increases your aerobic capacity because you are running slow enough that your lungs learn to accommodate the acquisition of more oxygen. This transfers over to faster running. Also, the mileage would increase blood flow to the exercising muscles via heart strengthening and subsequently the increase in stroke volume, but also the blossoming of new capillaries (the microscopic blood vessels that feed tissues nutrients) through capillarization. Furthermore, mileage runs would still increase the number of mitochondria (called mitochondrial density), and in turn more adenosine triphosphate would be produced when the terminal electron acceptor oxygen "pulls" nicotinamide adenine diphosphate's electrons through the collection of membrane proteins, creating a buildup of hydrogen ions that moves back down it's gradient, and in the process changes the confirmation of ATP synthase such that ADP is "forced" together with inorganic phosphate, creating ATP.
Point being:
Compartmentalization is crap in my opinion. Jumbo's quarters could work on multiple aspects of running, such as those listed above, and probably even VO2 max as well. I think many other workouts are similar as well.
No doubt that RE, LT, and VO2 Max are important physiological running variables that drive success, I just don't agree that they need to be isolated and worked on independently. I think they can all "blend" together and be worked on simultaneously, as the body works in sync anyway.
Thoughts?
I think you're missing what really matters here -- it's the coach more than the workouts. Elliott had a lot of experience watching his runners do 10 x 400, and understood what he wanted to see from a runner at a point in the season. I don't think he was targeting energy systems.
Elliott was coaching competitors not lab rats. At Nova runners were measured by results not workouts. At least 80 percent of Elliotts runners were raw competitors.
fastboy77 wrote:
Yeah I assume they ran quality mileage too.
Do you know if Jumbo was an advocate for big mileage?
I dont think that Jumbo was an advocate of any kind of mileage. I think his main influence was to "live like a clock". You get up in the morning and run. You run again in the afternoon. You go to bed and get up the next morning and repeat.
His runners were mostly 800/1500 types do I doubt many of them ran much over 100mpw.
Also note that they trained on an outdoor 160y board track in the winter, which obviously helped them indoors. The Chairman of the Boards earned his reputation by practice and repetition.
Thanks for the reply,
This is an interesting topic.
So you're saying that in addition to quarters they also did 'hard 10 milers,' which we know today to be steady state runs or tempo runs.
Are you aware of any other track workouts they did?
This thread is interesting, but I still don't understand how an offensive lineman is an authority on training runners.
big guy elliott wrote:
This thread is interesting, but I still don't understand how an offensive lineman is an authority on training runners.
Everybody funny. Now you funny too.
fastboy77 wrote:
Thanks for the reply,
This is an interesting topic.
So you're saying that in addition to quarters they also did 'hard 10 milers,' which we know today to be steady state runs or tempo runs.
Are you aware of any other track workouts they did?
My understanding was that The Duke (Hartnett) took the lads out on hard 10 milers.
No other training sessions were shown to me ... that I remembered. My sources are Kane and Pinkowski, and we didn't talk about the details of training very often.
Question for you malmo
What would be the fartlek version of 6 x 440 and 10 x 440 for those of us who don't have a track?
I don't know. Whatever you think it is.
Lastly,
Was the rest actually a 400 jog?
I know Eamonn Coghlan was very big on standing recoveries when doing all his speed work (post college). I thought maybe that rubbed off on him from Jumbo.
I’m pretty sure Liquori’s book talks about equal recovery jog, don’t have it on me now
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