Have a think about a relevant male 1500m runner currently running quite well.
Have a think about a relevant male 1500m runner currently running quite well.
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
yeah that's a good one - big Manny on the sauce but must have dropped a storming last 200 there well under 26 and ran 3.35?
His final 300m was exactly 38.95 as he led at 1200 in 2.55.68 and finished in 3.34.63
I suspect his last 100 was around exactly 12-flat
Sopa de Sabadell wrote:
the shoes maaan wrote:
It’s the shoes! Cole Hocker and Nuguse only ran some of the fastest ever NCAA times because of the shoes! There’s no way the first and 3rd best American 1500 runners can run 3:34 and 3:35 unless they have special shoes! Name another year where two of the top 3 Americans were that fast!
2019, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009, 2007, 2006, 2005 and 2001.
Yes, but other than those years!
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
1980 Olympics Coe. Slower race (3:38.4 WT), but posters there have 12.1, 52.2 splits for Coe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMz0WZzWWlw&ab_channel=AthletixStuffChannel
Plus, Coe was running in Army boots on a gravel track. It's the shoes, Rojo tells us!
Last 700 in 1:35.5 filthy
kidding?? wrote:
Jessen jeffla wrote:
https://twitter.com/athletetracking/status/1409380206012354562?s=19His finish is something else. It's lethal like a prime lagat kick. When was the last time we saw someone close the final 100 this fast? Maybe Cacho in 92 even though he let off in the final few meters?
Manzano finished in 12.0 in 2012.
https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20804196/the-underdog/
What!! No he didn't. Manzano was on the 100m from home line at 3:21.6 in the race and finished in 3:34.79. So it wasn't even sub 13.0 secs. It was 13.2
That article link is completely inaccurate.
Jessen jeffla wrote:
https://twitter.com/athletetracking/status/1409380206012354562?s=19His finish is something else. It's lethal like a prime lagat kick. When was the last time we saw someone close the final 100 this fast? Maybe Cacho in 92 even though he let off in the final few meters?
Cacho's last 400m was an incredible 50.5, but his last 100m was a less impressive 12.8. The line at the beginning of the home straight is the end of the 4 x 100m relay zone, so is 90m from the finish. He covered the last 90m in 11.6, which is 12.8 for last 100m. Not all tracks have a clear line in lane 1 to show the last 100m.
You can see the leader in the 400m final hitting the mark 100m from home in the link below, to give a better idea of where Cacho would have had to be in lane 1 to hit the 100m from home mark.
https://youtu.be/_uHLiP7SVpI?t=33Sopa de Sabadell wrote:
Hocker:
Last 400m - 52.5
Last 200m - 25.3
Last 100m - 12.3
Exactly what I got. Possibly 12.2 for last 100m.
I got last 300m of 38.6 or 38.7.
Last 800m - 1:50.5
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
Sopa de Sabadell wrote:
Hocker:
Last 400m - 52.5
Last 200m - 25.3
Last 100m - 12.3
No 1500m runner (not Centro, not Jakob, no Brit, no East African, nobody) on the planet has this finishing power right now in a 3.35 race. I've pointed out that these splits in this time quality of race historically match-up with World and Olympic title winning efforts of the past.
If someone can find splits from someone else that match up with what Hocker has now done twice in two weekends, please feel free to post them. Simple criteria is that it has to be a mid 3.30 race (say 3.34-37) with a split around 2min (1.58-2.01) at 800m. The final 200m needs to be 25.5 or faster
Ball is in anyone's court here to prove my statement wrong. No BS, just facts by way of numbers.
Cole Hocker is one of the most intriguing and crazy talents we have seen - right up there with J.I et al
From quite some time ago, the 89 World Cup 1500m, with Bile winning in 3:35.5 and a 'past it' Coe 2nd in 3:35.7. Their finishing splits over the last 400m are marginally better than Hocker's , and they were running on slower tracks without the new 'super fast' shoes.
Hocker's 800, 1100 and 1200 splits - 1:59.7, 2:42.8, 2:56.6 - giving him closing splits of - 1:35.5, 52.5, 38.6, with last 200/100 in 25.3/12.3
Coe's 800, 1100, and 1200 splits - 1:59.3, 2:44.0, 2:57.7 - giving him closing splits of - 1:36.4, 51.7, 38.0, with last 200/100 in 25.2/12.8 (and he was impeded at start of home straight).
Bile's 800, 1100 and 1200 splits - 1:59.7, 2:44.1, 2:57.9 - giving him closing splits of - 1:35.8, 51.4! 37.6, with last 200/100 in 24.9!/12.6
But I agree, Hocker's closing splits in that 3:35 are as good as anyone currently running could produce and comparable with some of the greats from the past.
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
Yeah, bit of a difference between 3.35.28 ET and 3.38.4 HT (which is more like 3.38.6X electronic).
Nearly 3.5 seconds is considerable no? So this is a decent example but not really a comparable one.
But the fact we are using Seb Coe (universally regarded as the best kicker of all time over the 1500m/mile) as our measuring stick kind of proves my point.
It wasn't hand timed! Of course they used FAT in the Olympics in 1980. They just often rounded up for the results. E.g, in the 800m final, Ovett's official FAT was 1:45.40 (given as 1:45.4), with Coe 2nd in 1:45.85 (but rounded in results to 1:45.9).
Likewise in 1500m. Coe's winning time was 3:38.40, with Ovett 3rd in 3:38.99 (but shown as 3:39.0). It was certainly not hand timed.
I agree that a 3:38 is not the best choice to compare with a 3:35, although the development in track surfaces and shoes probably negates those 3 seconds, but Coe's last 700m was some 2.5 seconds faster than Hocker's last 700m . Coe's 3rd lap in Moscow was 54.6, compared to Hocker's 56.9.
But again, you have a valid point.
zcxvzxcv wrote:
It's not undisputed that Coe had the best kick of all time. Jim Ryun could equal or surpass him. On chewed up dirt in the twilight in Dusseldorf in 1967, Jim Ryun closed a 3:38 1500m in 50 with a last 300m in about 36.5. The shame is that the Germans don't upload the complete footage of the race so that we can time it. Hocker closed the last 300m in 38.6 on a fast track but then it was very, very hot (comparable to Ryun's 3:33.1 wr, I think), but didn't really get fully going until he broke out of the box with a little over 100m to go.
Swings and roundabouts.
Comparing Coe's 3:38 in Moscow with Ryun's 3:38 in 67, the latter's run was a 1 off compared to Coe's being his 6th race in about 9 days in an Olympics.
Ryun kicked at 300m, running a stupendous 36.5 (compared to Coe's 38.6), but then there last 200m were practically the same - Ryun's 24.8 on rails v Coe's 25.0 going wide on some of the bend to pass Straub ( had it been on inside of lane 1, it would have also been 24.8).
Ryun's last 400m was faster - 50.6 to 52.2, but Coe's last 100m was faster with a 12.1, which is when he launched his final kick. Coe's last 800m was also faster - 1:48.5 to Ryun's 1:50.0.
So, you can't just compare a finish based on one split time, it has to be taken in context.
I doubt anyone in history could have reproduced Ryun's last 300m that night in a similar run race, but I also doubt anyone in history could have run a faster last 100m than Coe did in Moscow in a similar run race.
Both had incredible kicks.
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
yeah that's a good one - big Manny on the sauce but must have dropped a storming last 200 there well under 26 and ran 3.35?
His final 300m was exactly 38.95 as he led at 1200 in 2.55.68 and finished in 3.34.63
I suspect his last 100 was around exactly 12-flat
Manangoi hits the 100m from home mark in 3:21.5 and finishes in 3:34.63. Now, Kiprop crosses the finish line in 3:34.1, before the clock stops at 3:34.40, so there is a drag (residual error) of 0.3 between the onscreen clock and the official time. That means Manangoi would have hit 1400m in 3:21.8, giving him a closing 100m of 12.8.
He looked like he was finishing like a train because those ahead were slowing quite considerably in the last 100m.
Hocker who?
Are you kidding me to suggest he's the best kicker ever?
American's insanity got to this level? Gosh, this is worst than the brits suggesting Mo Farah as the best 5/10 ever.
Let's start with Morcelli.
Here Morcelli, 2:43.6 at the bell, runs 51.6 for the last lap finishing in 3:34. You can't see his last 100m exactly but it was at least a 12.5 (jogging in the last 10m or so to celebrate). To suggest Hocker is better kicker than Morcelli is just insane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT6pQ-Md2ss
Now Guerrouj well where we can start? He has plenty of races where he runs sub 3:30 and sub 13 last 100, does anyone really believes he couldn't run what Hocker did for his last 100m in a 3:35 race? 3:35 was jogging for him
Abdi Bile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JZdoTiRcwo
Another from Bile... 2nd place in this race Jens Peter has a better kick than Hocker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2xMF7aKiCU&list=PLtJ0TRBSouL_9pIZVvOtAcAihxzZHenkn
Sebastian Coe
many races mentioned here...
Said Aouita.. to suggest he couldnt do a 12.2 last 100m in a 3:35 race is disrespectful...
just a reminder... of his last 100m in his famous race against Cram...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPzemlXs9qE
Steve Ovett... usually didn't kick in the last 100m but before. Another one that is disrespectful to say he couldnt close in 12.2 in a 3:35 race. He had 21.7 200m speed...
what is his second to last 100m here???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W7GogWlv7Q
Ronald Kwemoi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_nQj3HEgzA
Rui Silva... just a reminder of what he could do...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt5R-pPZxbM
Hocker... great talent.. still a long way to go.. first he needs to qualify to the Olympic final.. it wont be easy...
I mean 12.8 is pretty darn fast and it’s a 3:34 race that winded up earlier. Good note though.
I've posted here on the boards with doubts over whether Hocker could make the team given his long, busy NCAA schedule.
Cole made a believer out of me, I reckon I done been shushed!
Rock on, young man.
That Ryun clip is freaky considering he’s running on cinders / dirt.
Hockey has shown that he has a homestretch kick that lines up well with the best. He needs to prove he can do this at the international level.
When he was in top form Coe had the best homestretch kick overall. Other great kickers - if smart - would likely have been driving from 300 meters out.
Over a full last lap, Morceli at top form was deadly. He would have run the sting out of a Coe who was waiting for the last 80 - 100 meters. Likely the same for a Jim Ryun with sensible/modern training. That guy was simply burned out by ridiculous training methods.
El G had that deadly drive from 600 out, but too many doping questions about him. Heard the same about Morceli late in his career, and not a few people (coaches) stated to me that Bile was caught but inexplicably let off, much like Ngeny. But who knows for sure. Don’t bring up Lagat. Fraud.
Anyway, Hocker is a beast, and just making it Tokyo at his age - he just turned 20 - is quite amazing. Lots of people keep banging the drum for Nuguse but he’s two years older than Hocker. They both have great potential. Hocker is going to get better no matter what happens in Tokyo.
zcxvzxcv wrote:
It's not undisputed that Coe had the best kick of all time. Jim Ryun could equal or surpass him. On chewed up dirt in the twilight in Dusseldorf in 1967, Jim Ryun closed a 3:38 1500m in 50 with a last 300m in about 36.5. The shame is that the Germans don't upload the complete footage of the race so that we can time it. Hocker closed the last 300m in 38.6 on a fast track but then it was very, very hot (comparable to Ryun's 3:33.1 wr, I think), but didn't really get fully going until he broke out of the box with a little over 100m to go.
What’s the best source of Ryun’s close? Can’t remember if it’s ever really been confirmed that it was <37s but everyone seems to think it was
Random question xyz wrote:
zcxvzxcv wrote:
It's not undisputed that Coe had the best kick of all time. Jim Ryun could equal or surpass him. On chewed up dirt in the twilight in Dusseldorf in 1967, Jim Ryun closed a 3:38 1500m in 50 with a last 300m in about 36.5. The shame is that the Germans don't upload the complete footage of the race so that we can time it. Hocker closed the last 300m in 38.6 on a fast track but then it was very, very hot (comparable to Ryun's 3:33.1 wr, I think), but didn't really get fully going until he broke out of the box with a little over 100m to go.
What’s the best source of Ryun’s close? Can’t remember if it’s ever really been confirmed that it was <37s but everyone seems to think it was
The German papers themselves reported 36.4, and a couple reported 49.7 as the final 400, not the 50.6 listed by Cordner Nelson in his book “The Milers”. In that book he and Quercetani actually try to tone it down. It seems like any time the footage of the full lap goes up it’s taken down right away. Oh well. The US coaches btw had Ry.un under 50 for the full lap and at 36.5 for the last 300. Ryun was actually fully rested for the first time that season, only because he’d taken a few days off after a race in London in which he had an upset stomach and still out kicked Keino. Too bad his training was so lousy.
LousyKicker wrote:
Random question xyz wrote:
What’s the best source of Ryun’s close? Can’t remember if it’s ever really been confirmed that it was <37s but everyone seems to think it was
The German papers themselves reported 36.4, and a couple reported 49.7 as the final 400, not the 50.6 listed by Cordner Nelson in his book “The Milers”. In that book he and Quercetani actually try to tone it down. It seems like any time the footage of the full lap goes up it’s taken down right away. Oh well. The US coaches btw had Ry.un under 50 for the full lap and at 36.5 for the last 300. Ryun was actually fully rested for the first time that season, only because he’d taken a few days off after a race in London in which he had an upset stomach and still out kicked Keino. Too bad his training was so lousy.
I have seen the entire race on dvd. The last lap was 50.5, last 300m 36.5 or 36.6. Hard to make out last 200m as the line is not clear. And the penultimate lap was 60 flat.
I think Hocker has the acceleration and speed to be among the best ever. However there are other great finishers, I am not sure anyone could match Jim Ryun at his best over the last 300 meters. And Steve Ovett certainly had acceleration and speed as good as Hocker. I believe Ovett ran the penultimate 100 at the 1977 European Cup in 11.8 and then eased up on the home stretch waving to the crowd and still ran 25.1 for the last 200. His time was 3:34.45, a British record, so he could turn on the jets even off a fast pace.