I think it is a fair question. If Teare didn’t think the spikes helped, why would he wear them? I also understand why he didn’t directly answer the question.
The shoes/spikes work. Records will continue to fall. It’s like the super swimsuits from 12-15 years ago when every swimming record fell.
king999 wrote:
And I meant faster at 5K than McChesney, period, not the 6 seconds faster I referred to at a mile.
The problem here with accepting and celebrating todays talent is that many lrc posters are simply... old.
In 20 more years you and me gonna be remembering the golden days of Centro, Brazier, Kessler, Hocker &Teare and gonna be knocking down the new generation of runners in special running suits on new gravity defying tracks.
Teare can easily put his fitness where his mouth is and run the rest of the season in standard spikes. But he won't and we all know why. None of the athletes who claim this is all about covid-induced focussed training will put it to the test and give up their Dragonfly's.
Are the super spikes more like cycling where the cyclists can get lighter, stronger, and more aerodynamic components, which make even best and strongest cyclists faster. Cyclist A, who is a fine tuned athletic stud, rides a Trek $2500 generic bike, and he finishes near the mid pack. Now put him on a state of the art $13000 Trek Madone and he easily out sprints the leaders. The technology just gives him a little a extra punch to win. It doesn’t mean that he didn’t put tons of work to get in the best shape possible to be in position to win, but he used all his assets legally to be able to win. Cooper ran great and deserves most of the credit in his awesome victory and we shouldn’t sell his accomplishments short! Way to go Cooper!
This is as insane a post as ever typed!! To "rundeeun"
To the other poster? I already am old, not sure I will see 20 plus more years.
Unless they are deemed illegal, people should wear whatever spikes they want.
Rojo, I think the more interesting question is “Why weren’t spikes like this sooner?”
The DragonFlys aren’t really anything special when you actually think about. They are basically made out of the same material spikes have always been made out of (Pebax plate.. and really the pebax doesn’t matter; you can use almost any rigid, lightweight material, like carbon fiber obviously).
Shoes are really just a balance of weight, rigidity while still allowing proper movement, and optimal cushion to reduce impact/fatigue. More cushion usually equals heavier weight and reduced rigidity resulting in less pure speed (obviously sprinters would never wear something like Vaporflys).
So you make a full length plate for rigidity, and then pair it with a small layer of lightweight foam. The foam doesn’t actually make you faster; it actually slows you down- all else equal. If you exert the exact same amount of force in a shoe with a lot of foam, you’ll go slower than a super stiff rigid shoe with no foam. BUT the foam reduces fatigue over time, and the softer feel seems to tell the brain it’s okay to produce a lot of force and not get hurt. For distance running (especially 5k and up) this ‘cushion’ becomes more important and seems to overrride any max speed loss. Also, it probably helps some runners more than others. People that grew up running barefoot may not need much cushion (if any) to reduce fatigue for a 1500-10k. I’d guess ‘Western’ runners, especially those on the heavier side, benefit more from the cushioned shoes, but I’ll admit that’s mostly speculative. So maybe that’s why you’re seeing an increased ‘depth’ in lots of events, but not necessarily the same degree of faster absolute best times for the 1500 and 5k. (For the 10k though, it seems the cushion is helping pretty much everyone.)
So all shoes are simply trying to find the optimal balance of rigidity vs cushion while being as light as possible (and of course they need the optimal shape, but that shouldn’t be that hard to figure out these days).
So the question is: Why did it take so long for shoes like this to come out? How did no one think “Hey, let’s add a sliver of lightweight foam to provide some cushioning for the distance runners; with a full length plate, the shoe will still be pretty stiff, so maybe it could work?” Part of it, is that the foam just wasn’t as good before. With heavier foam giving less energy return, the trade-off of using foam was likely too high. With these newer, lightweight foams with energy returns in the mid to high 80’s, there’s not as much of a drawback (loss in speed) with foam, so you can simply reap the benefits.
Still though, the whole spike thing has been weird to follow. It’s really a very basic concept when you think about it, yet the running world is so amazed. And this is in the middle of a crazy technological world where we’re literally going to Mars and are close to interfacing with computers with our brains (NueraLink). So adding some foam to a stiff plate seems like a 1st grade project comparatively. I’m not trying to discredit shoe designers and the innovation of it, but I think it’s a pretty fascinating story. Maybe you should talk to more shoe designers about how they missed this for so long and what gave them the epiphany.
You shouldn’t even have a credential RoJoke.
To the FUDs. What do you expect him to say minutes after winning a National Title? “Yeah it was the spikes. I really didn’t train hard”.
In order to not get a defensive response it’s often good to compliment first and then slip in your question. You could of said…
“Incredible win and well deserved. You broke a nearly 40 year old record. From your experience do you believe the recent advancement in spike technology has given a specific time advantage over 5000 meters? If so, how much time do believe that is?”
La sopa de Sabadell wrote:
Does a carpenter accredit his hammers?
Actually, yes. More properly the tool designer and manufacturer.
How fast do you guys think Pre would have run in these super spikes if he hadn’t gotten drunk and flipped his car over?
If it ain't the spikes, then why not go back to the old shoes?
Waaaahhhhhhh wrote:
How fast do you guys think Pre would have run in these super spikes if he hadn’t gotten drunk and flipped his car over?
Well, he would have been in his late 60s when the spikes came out so not too fast would be my conclusion
Who was that African guy who ran consecutive fast 10000 races in super spikes then barefoot in about the same time? His effort should be considered as evidenciary.
Rojo, if your theory is that the spikes give one anything more than a 1-second advantage at 5k over all the other spikes, then you're saying that Grijalva (who was wearing adidas) would have won if he was wearing Dragonflies and that Teare didn't deserve to win. If you think they give you anything less than a second advantage over 5k, why the f*ck would you even care as that's such a miniscule difference.
The Unkle wrote:
If it ain't the spikes, then why not go back to the old shoes?
People probably find them more comfortable and they help keep runners on their toes better during their races? You know, what all spikes are designed to do. What the spike hoaxers are trying desperately to say is that the spikes act as springs and make you bounce. That's insane.
Let it Rupp wrote:
The Unkle wrote:
If it ain't the spikes, then why not go back to the old shoes?
People probably find them more comfortable and they help keep runners on their toes better during their races? You know, what all spikes are designed to do. What the spike hoaxers are trying desperately to say is that the spikes act as springs and make you bounce. That's insane.
So you agree the spikes are a factor? You seem to be saying that, but then denying it at the same time.
I think they do act as springs? No?
Waaaahhhhhhh wrote:
How fast do you guys think Pre would have run in these super spikes if he hadn’t gotten drunk and flipped his car over?
How fast would Pre have run if his car had had a full-length carbon-fiber hood with a bit of added cushioning?
La sopa de Sabadell wrote:
tinisaur wrote:
Teare’s comment:”I don’t really like to credit anything to the spikes, necessarily.” This is an absurd comment and shows how he is pumping himself up with delusional thinking. Teare likely would have finished no higher than 15th running barefoot. However, the question is naturally going to annoy anyone because it is taken as if one is trying to discredit one’s achievements. So naturally he dismisses it as if the question has no merit. The question has merit but at the same time it appears irrelevant to a guy who just won a hard fought NCAA title and he naturally wants the credit to go to himself, his coaches, his teammates and not the shoes. And so it should.
Does a carpenter accredit his hammers? There are better hammers and worse hammers, but when someone looks at a table, they praise the carpenter and not the hammer.
Same goes here. It is ludicrous to ask a guy who worked really hard for this race if it's the shoes.
+1
king999 wrote:
This is what kills me, regarding some comments on here consistently.
It is almost 40 FORTY years later than Billy McChesney.
https://worldathletics.org/athletes/united-states/bill-mcchesney-14346073Teare has run faster at the mile by over 6 seconds, and now at 5K.
Why is it such a frigging miracle to many that marks have clearly improved. Again, only in T&F , especially mid/LD running do folks not willingly accept inprovements.
Teare is a 3:50 Indoor miler, you want to add 2-3 secs, fine, McChesney was a 3:56.x gut once, is it that remarkable that a kid who isn't afraid to get out on the edge with great 5K closing speed for the NCAA level could run this? Without doubling and being fresh, and assuming a solid pace, I saw Teare running 13:15, he has already run 13:20.
Look, the shoes are better and they are not going away, and anyone can wear them, get past this already, the same stuff clutters the boards and trivializes, quite frankly marks that should have been run 15-20 years ago. Considering McChesney ran his 13:14 in a Euro Summer meet in 1982? At 23?
The problem is that you are wrong. If everyone can wear them, everyone wouldnbe wearing them. Luis Grijalva and NAU were forced to wear Adidas spikes and it probably cost them national titles in the 5k and 10k
rojo wrote:
For the record, I didn't and do not credit everything to the spikes. I wasn't crediting the spikes with the title. I just am wondering how fast does he think he'd run in regular spikes.
You're full of chit. You talk about it constantly and you're an abomination as a "news" guy.