Non-binary athletes (legit question)

SDSU Aztec wrote:

lonesome moon wrote:

Of course any reasonable person would agree -- the problem is that Nikki Hiltz herself has said that transgender men should be allowed to compete in the women's division. The inconsistencies show how flawed their argument is (in terms of professional sports ONLY. I have absolutely no problem with it in any other scenario, it's none of anyone else's business how someone identifies or feels).

If she identifies as a man sometimes, by her logic (which says that men identifying as women compete as women), she should have to compete in the men's division at those times. Of course that's unrealistic.

The intersex issue is insanely more muddled -- I go back and forth on that one.

She really said transgender men should be allowed to compete in the women’s division? That makes no sense.

David Bowie Cat People Putting Out Fire Music Video HQ / Yo Lio

ddidididid wrote:

The only place it breaks down is HS and maybe at Olympic level where .5% differences matter.

So, everywhere.

Non-binary athletes competing is obviously a whole different thing than the issue of transwoman, XY chromosome, or anyone who’s going through a biologically male puberty competing in the women’s division of any sport. That latter scenario presents huge competitive unfairness issues, and serious safety and consent issues in high contact or combat sports.

My point, I guess, is that it strikes me that a non-binary athlete who then continues to compete in the division of their biological sex completely undermines the logical arguments for total self-ID based categorization. You can say “Laurel Hubbard identifies as a woman, and therefore should compete with women,” and fine. I think that’s the wrong conclusion to make, but as a logical proposition at least it’s facially consistent. But, it is no longer consistent or even makes any sense in my view if you then also say “Nikki Hiltz self-IDs as NOT a woman, but nevertheless competes with women.”

I hate singling Nikki Hiltz out here, and I certainly have no malice or intention to insult Nikki Hiltz. But I just think if you’re going to say “non-binary” is a true thing, and it exists entirely separate from male and female, then you have to address the totally obvious question of why a self-declared non-binary athlete is competing in either the women’s or men’s division. In the real live example, of course, the situation happens to be taking place in the women’s division (perhaps unsurprisingly, for reasons similar to why the transgender athletes competing issue is basically exclusive to the women’s division).

trollism wrote:

If education is the goal, you must be open to taking questions wrote:

Alright. All of this is in reference to Nikki Hiltz, who is non-binary.

https://www.womensrunning.com/culture/people/nikki-hiltz-comes-out-transgender/

If we as a society are going to take transgender athletes in sports seriously, then Nikki Hiltz should not be allowed to compete in the women’s category because Nikki Hiltz is not a woman. If you’re saying Nikki Hiltz should still run with the women, it’s because you’re saying “look, we know Nikki Hiltz is actually really a woman and we’re just humoring Nikki Hiltz by referring to her as they and non-binary”.

You can’t have it both ways.

Also transgender. That's your issue.

Don't worry your little head about the 'non binary' thing.

I think Nikki considers herself an enbee, but the way she describes it she’s gender fluid. So she herself probably doesn’t even understand the words. These are all new things and since less than .001% of the population identifies as any of these , then I think it’s fair to be patient and help educate.

The USATF does not have a ban against non-binary athletes and even if they did, it would be based on a diagnosis from a mental health professional and not a tweet. If she did what you believe to be the honorable thing, she would lose her sponsor contract so if she gets the OT qualifying time, she will compete for a spot on the Olympic team.

You seem to believe her tweet should disqualify her but most people would consider it to be irrelevant. Maybe you should send a letter to the USATF?

Trans and non-binary are mental illnesses, no one is helping these people by playing along with it

nate bass wrote:

Trans and non-binary are mental illnesses, no one is helping these people by playing along with it

Do you put gay people in the same category?

I do not, they are not claiming to be something that they are obviously not

Off the subject but did you see the topless photo of Eliot (Ellen) Page post surgery?

I do have questions about Page. She first claimed she was simply gay, then that morphed into coming out a second time, only as transgender. What's next?

In light of current events, a certain athlete likes winning and wouldn’t be able to win as a male.

I think non-binary athletes understand the biological differences between sexes.

I was happy to see that someone else was wondering about all of this. If she won the women's 1500M then does that not define her as a woman. Or will have have non-binary women AND non-binary men?

Meanwhile in the UK the women's 1500m winning time was 4:06.7 breaking a record held by Zola Budd,

“Assigned at birth” refers to gender identity not sex, this is coming from the pretty liberal take on gender theory. While there is argument to be made on if gender is or isn’t genetic, sex is genetic and completely objectively observable. It’s not being assigned to someone at birth, it’s being observed. You don’t assign a baby blue eyes at birth, you observe a baby with blue eyes at birth. Like I said, there’s more nuance with gender identity but not sex, which is objectively determined by chromosomes/genitalia.

In my opinion, athletes should compete with the sex they were born as, considering how much of an athletic advantage/disadvantage one would receive by switching. I think the liberal/progressive approach to LGBTQ+ and sports could change a bit, separate groups by chromosomes and think of it as something similar to weight classes instead of a gender identity thing. No one thinks it’s discriminatory to say it’s unfair for a 140 lb guy to be matched up with a 230 lb guy in a boxing/wrestling match, I think sex should be viewed the same way.

I understand that this is a harsh reality for trans/nonbinary individuals, people want to play their sport in a way they feel like their truest self, but it’s a harsh reality for most people in one form or another. At some point people get cut from their highschool team, don’t get an offer to play in college, don’t get to go pro after college etc etc. despite working just as hard as the next guy/girl. Its not fair, but that’s life and not everyone is dealt the lot where they get to be a famous pro athlete. Some athletes don’t get to compete collegiately or at the pro level because they have a condition where they need to be on heavy PEDs to keep them alive. That’s life.

I thought leftists like you claim it's a violation of human rights to make biological males compete against males. Shouldn't you say the same thing about Hiltz, who identifies as neither female, always competing against womxn?

No contradiction if sex and gender aren’t the same thing.

A dumb bump of a dumb thread with the same dumb rhetorical "question".

It gives them victim status

Interesting that Boston says you have to qualify for your age and gender, not sex. The non-binary qualifying times they have posted are the same as the women's times. They say that it's their first year so it's a work in progress and they may adjust the times in the future if needed.

When did she say that?