Is this maybe the reason why they branded their training programs "Hammer and Axe" on Final Surge. Maybe this split wasn't so sudden and this has been brewing for a while.
This seems like awful timing given the Olympics are less than 100 days away and the trial coming up in June. Were things so bad that they couldn't wait it out until after the Oly Games?
Prediction: Hunter never makes another senior team (WC/Oly).
The first time I saw him run a race, I couldn’t believe he ran as fast as he did—terrible mechanics, looks like a broken dump truck , hunched forward, bowed legs, hips rocking. Yikes.
Also, LOL on posters saying the coach doesn’t know the “secret” training to get to the next level. There are no secrets.
You have to do drugs if you want to be like Mo (Farah, Trafeh...) and go from also-ran to superstar.
An entire group predicated on Parsons winning halfway at the Fifth Avenue Mile.
high school xc coach wrote:
Rojo is spot on here. THe rest of the team is not above Tinman's coaching. It seems to be working. Drew has not improved much since high school. He needs a change of scenery to see if there is more in him. He probably also needs better training partners.
Yep. Don't see what changing coaches is going to do for Drew if he does't get better training partners.
kipudgy wrote:
Kind of a dick move for all of them to leave together in a cue type maneuver, stealing the Tinman name. Let’s hope Tom has a good lawyer to refer to.
Did you mean “coup”?
Where does this leave Cory Leslie?
de etat wrote:
kipudgy wrote:
Kind of a dick move for all of them to leave together in a cue type maneuver, stealing the Tinman name. Let’s hope Tom has a good lawyer to refer to.
Did you mean “coup”?
I thought on cue
truth sayer guy wrote:
Prediction: Hunter never makes another senior team (WC/Oly).
The first time I saw him run a race, I couldn’t believe he ran as fast as he did—terrible mechanics, looks like a broken dump truck , hunched forward, bowed legs, hips rocking. Yikes.
Also, LOL on posters saying the coach doesn’t know the “secret” training to get to the next level. There are no secrets.
You have to do drugs if you want to be like Mo (Farah, Trafeh...) and go from also-ran to superstar.
there is a reason some coaches and some teams are better than others - it's not just a matter of plugging in some times and paces
college coach wrote:
Where does this leave Cory Leslie?
Booking his room for the next USTFCCCA convention, polishing up his resume, checking the "2021 College Track and Field Coaching Openings" thread, and firing off very pleasant emails to ADs' inboxes.
de etat wrote:
kipudgy wrote:
Kind of a dick move for all of them to leave together in a cue type maneuver, stealing the Tinman name. Let’s hope Tom has a good lawyer to refer to.
Did you mean “coup”?
my take is all the 18 min losers on here talking sh*t about tinman and then the runners started thinking they needed better and greener grass. they starting mouthing off, and slowly became a mutiny. tinman was like "fuuuuu*ck this im out" and i will say karma will get everyone of these little brats. webb leaving Raczko was im sure from him starting to doubt him and caused issues. jim ryan left Timmons and ran worse.
if its not broke dont f*ck with it, but people always think that its not them its the coach.
trust in your coach is 90%, a noob coach will get results if there is trust and faith. a smart coach who is an a$$hole that degrades runners will eventually been given a large serving of humble pie....think al sal (plus was he that smart? or was it all the drugs?)
rojo wrote:
That's not the way the coaching works. If you understand the human body, you can coach period. You are training bodies. The elite body is just a faster version of the body. If that wasn't true, then no one could coach a pro woman (about the level of a good HS boy) and pro man.
I disagree with this point. As a coach, you are also training minds, not just bodies. All the physiological expertise in the world won't make you a good coach if you don't understand what makes your particular athlete tick inside their skulls. Each stage of development requires different approaches, and each athlete responds to different psychological stimuli when it comes to training and racing. I could easily cook up a training program that would work for elites, but having only coached high school runners, I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to approach the mental aspect of pro training. Point being, it's not that simple?
rojo wrote:
Zante wrote:
I don't think Tinman's training gets the job done for taking that next leap past college or club-level training.
That's not the way the coaching works. If you understand the human body, you can coach period. You are training bodies. The elite body is just a faster version of the body. If that wasn't true, then no one could coach a pro woman (about the level of a good HS boy) and pro man.
Zante wrote:
Anyway wishing both parties the best.
Yes.
The relationship was clearly broken. Good luck to both.
I don't fully agree with you here rojo. My understanding of what Zante meant was that his training style works to develop people to a very high level. Nobody knows their actual limits, so training with him might seem like they reach that top limit when in reality they may reach 95-97%. I do think he leaves a few % on the table in terms of top level individual improvements. When you already get near to the top you need to find a way to squeeze off a few more seconds. I think this will be good for some of the athletes, IF they can get an even better coach; and that's a big if.
And when you write: "If you understand the human body, you can coach period. You are training bodies. The elite body is just a faster version of the body." This is largely true, but the subtlety is that each person does respond differently and need slightly different things to be optimized. Maybe Schwartz has a really good program that works well for everyone, and he sticks with that, but he is not good at perfecting each individual plan. Again: I don't know. I hope he finds a good gig for his next career path, and it's not a good sign that the team hasn't quickly announced a new coach. It will certainly be a job for someone who will let them take the reigns a bit and sit back and provide larger picture organization and small adjustments. Their ego it seems wants to dominate for a bit (and that's ok!).
androitly speaking wrote:
truth sayer guy wrote:
Prediction: Hunter never makes another senior team (WC/Oly).
The first time I saw him run a race, I couldn’t believe he ran as fast as he did—terrible mechanics, looks like a broken dump truck , hunched forward, bowed legs, hips rocking. Yikes.
Also, LOL on posters saying the coach doesn’t know the “secret” training to get to the next level. There are no secrets.
You have to do drugs if you want to be like Mo (Farah, Trafeh...) and go from also-ran to superstar.
there is a reason some coaches and some teams are better than others - it's not just a matter of plugging in some times and paces
Yes, that reason is: more talented athletes.
Given a FLOOR of coaching knowledge, interpersonal skills, etc, the horses make the coach.
Many coaches do not have that floor. My HS coach didn’t have the knowledge. My college coach didn’t have the interpersonal skills. Therefore both teams underperformed.
A high school coach/teacher wrote:
rojo wrote:
That's not the way the coaching works. If you understand the human body, you can coach period. You are training bodies. The elite body is just a faster version of the body. If that wasn't true, then no one could coach a pro woman (about the level of a good HS boy) and pro man.
I disagree with this point. As a coach, you are also training minds, not just bodies. All the physiological expertise in the world won't make you a good coach if you don't understand what makes your particular athlete tick inside their skulls. Each stage of development requires different approaches, and each athlete responds to different psychological stimuli when it comes to training and racing. I could easily cook up a training program that would work for elites, but having only coached high school runners, I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to approach the mental aspect of pro training. Point being, it's not that simple?
Yes, that's an important and telling distinction. If an athlete at that level doesn't care deeply, every single day, then when he's out of the coach's presence he may half-ass or just skip some of the 1% extra you have to do to rise through the ranks. If a coach doesn't have the knowledge of the importance of those 1% extra things then he or she won't emphasize them enough. We saw this with the Gouchers when they switched from Wetmore to AlSal. It wasn't just the thryoid meds, etc., it was a bunch of things that had been missing from their routine in Boulder and simply continuing to train like a Buff didn't cut it at the 2004 OT.
I feel like theres more to the story here.
Probably on the outs. From what I understand he was essentially a surrogate Tinman who actually lived in CO and worked with the guys every day.
A high school coach/teacher wrote:
rojo wrote:
That's not the way the coaching works. If you understand the human body, you can coach period. You are training bodies. The elite body is just a faster version of the body. If that wasn't true, then no one could coach a pro woman (about the level of a good HS boy) and pro man.
I disagree with this point. As a coach, you are also training minds, not just bodies. All the physiological expertise in the world won't make you a good coach if you don't understand what makes your particular athlete tick inside their skulls. Each stage of development requires different approaches, and each athlete responds to different psychological stimuli when it comes to training and racing. I could easily cook up a training program that would work for elites, but having only coached high school runners, I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to approach the mental aspect of pro training. Point being, it's not that simple?
This discussion is excellent and worthwhile for runners and coaches alike.
The article says - “Cory Leslie is currently providing the day-to-day coaching while consulting with Joan and Marc Hunter.”
Translation: “They will continue using Tinman training without paying for his services.”
Remember, Joan Hunter hired Tinman for herself then for Drew many years ago. She then took everything she and Marc learned from Tinman to lead her High School Team to Nike XC championship status.
Seems fine to me, every athlete has that prerogative. But, taking Tinman’s name won’t sit well with anyone. Everyone knows Tom “Tinman” Schwartz and the TINMAN ELITE BRAND BELONGS TO “TINMAN.”
AndyVow wrote:
The article says - “Cory Leslie is currently providing the day-to-day coaching while consulting with Joan and Marc Hunter.”
Translation: “They will continue using Tinman training without paying for his services.”
Remember, Joan Hunter hired Tinman for herself then for Drew many years ago. She then took everything she and Marc learned from Tinman to lead her High School Team to Nike XC championship status.
Seems fine to me, every athlete has that prerogative. But, taking Tinman’s name won’t sit well with anyone. Everyone knows Tom “Tinman” Schwartz and the TINMAN ELITE BRAND BELONGS TO “TINMAN.”
more like translation means
"im a karen and i know i can do a better job" now watch him get run into the ground with dumb coaching
rojo wrote:
Waitforit4 wrote:
Why not wait until after the Trials to make a change or rebrand?
When we contacted Tom initially, he asked us to not publish it as he said that's what the Tinman guys wanted to do but this was too big of a story to keep quiet. Threads kept popping up so I said we had to publish something.
data hack wrote:
This will be a very popular move among most letsrunners.
Really? I think Tom is a fantastic coach and as a fellow father feel for him personally. Dismissals like this are the perfect embodiment of some the negative aspects of modern society. There is no job security. You ask a guy with a wife and kids to move states to coach you and don't give him a long-term contract? That rubs me the wrong way. Of course, Tom should have insisted on it before moving but that's pretty cut throat if you ask me.
That being said, I totally get why Drew might wonder if it's the coaching. He isn't as good as we hoped he'd be coming out of HS but after he ran 13:17 in crappy spikes last December, I figured he had a decent shot of breaking 13:00 in super spikes this summer.
But when I first heard of this last week, I said to Jonathan, "Please name one athlete other than Mo Farah who has run way better after switching coaches mid-career."
And the other guys seem to be flourishing. To be honest, most of the guys on that team aren't top pro talent so I haven't paid that close atention to them but it seems like a ton of the guys have been improving a lot.
Jeff Thies -Didn't break 14:00 in college. Now has run 13:32.
Sam Parsons - 344/803/1352 at NC State. 13:22/7:43/3:37 under Tinman.
Reed Fisher - 28:48 to 28:12 and 61 :37 in the half.
That's big time improvement.
I would have preferred to have seen Drew depart the group and Tom keep the rest of the group. That would have been the perfect outcome in my mind. I know one thing - Tom 100% should get to keep his own damn name. I think it's wrong for them to continue to use his name.
The problem is that Tinman's athletes were ALWAYS hurt. And they always ran well at small meets and then crashed at important meets. Drew Hunter has spent more time injured than healthy. All of that falls on the coach.