Rudisha is back looking slim

For people claiming that "non white" athletes are doping, just reflect about this:

Africa holds the world records from 400m to marathon.

In the marathon the 20 first best all time performances are African.

Try to apply the law of large numbers (probability theory) on these datas and you will figure that you are wrong on your ideas.

Coevett wrote:

Ja Moran wrote:

Every once in a while Coevett will slip up and reveal he’s also a moran in the normal, everyday way.

I don't know if Rudisha is a doper, I'd like to believe not but realistically it's certainly no more than 50/50. 4 of the top 11 Kenyan 800m runners from 2017 have already been suspended, so you're living in a fantasy world to think that doesn't suggest the possibility the fastest Kenyan of all-time might not have been clean.

He most definitely is but that doesn’t take away him being the goat. I’d like to see him run in the Olympics. Pass the torch to Brazier as he out kicks rudisha to the line.

Passant wrote:

For people claiming that "non white" athletes are doping, just reflect about this:

Africa holds the world records from 400m to marathon.

In the marathon the 20 first best all time performances are African.

Try to apply the law of large numbers (probability theory) on these datas and you will figure that you are wrong on your ideas.

What are you talking about? 4 out of 11 of the top Kenyan 800m runners from 2017 have been suspended. 2 of the 3 top 1500m runners have been suspended. The former half marathon and marathon WR holders have been busted. Even the fastest Kenyan 100 and 400m sprinters have been busted. The manager of the Kenyan Rio team has even been convicted of taking bribes to give his athletes advance warnings of tests. The Kiprop case confirmed rampant corruption in Kenyan anti-doping. Before last year there wasn't even.a WADA lab in Africa and since it was established busts have gone up despite limited racing due to Covid. EPO was.on sale for peanuts over the counter in every Kenyan High Street pharmacy until very recently, and still is in Ethiopia and Uganda.

Any reasonable person would conclude doping is rampant in Kenya and most of Africa. And most do conclude that outside of this forum. Yet here people like you are allowed to play the race card while explicitly claiming that Africans are genetically superior to others (at running).

I've said it before - this is the only website on Earth in which you are a racist if you deny the genetic superiority of one race over another.

Different dog breeds excel and fail at different things , one is not denying they are all the same species.

Humans are the same species but it's not .k. to say, or even speculate that they excel and fail at different things by genetic lineage. In any case the idea is apparently is super threatening to some people.

Different dog breeds excel and fail at other things relative to other dogs dependent on their genetic lineage and life experience. Humans do too. Nothing to be overly threatened about.

Coevett wrote:

I've said it before - this is the only website on Earth in which you are a racist if you deny the genetic superiority of one race over another.

You ave often saif pure nonsense and/or pure lies on this forum, thats nothing new. No need to point on it, everybody knows it, Mr. asterix.

Pendejon wrote:

Different dog breeds excel and fail at other things relative to other dogs dependent on their genetic lineage and life experience. Humans do too. Nothing to be overly threatened about.

Probably. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the double standards. Also, I'm prepared to accept that West Africans have some genetic advantages relating to fast twitch muscle fiber, but the idea that East Africans have the same advantage for distance running doesn't hold up. An entire country funnels practically every talented sportsman into distance running. There is almost a complete lack of obesity due to culture, kids are active instead of on Facebook and the PlayStation every leisure hour. We know there has been rampant near unchecked doping there with drugs that at a Conservative estimate improve mile times by several seconds. They have some of the best trails in the world and an ideal climate. Further, the best European coaches like Canova go there to 'coach the best talent'. Yet they still run barely faster than the likes of Ryun, Coe, Snell, Herb Elliott etc, even before you take into account the differences in shoes, tracks, quality of pacing etc. Look at the runners Australia and New Zealand produced in the 60s and 70s with a population of less than 20 million and while also dominating or competitive in at least a dozen other major sports.

Even the marathon - what could Steve Jones have done with gallons of EPO and super shoes? I would say that maybe 1 in 200 High schoolers in the West aspire to be a competitive marathoner. It's more like 195 out of 200 in Kenya. Why should it surprise you they have the 200 fastest times when they also have a drug that makes them at least 5 to 10 minutes faster over that distance? Do you believe that women born in Lower Saxony have a genetic advantage over every other tibe in the world at 400m?

Coevett wrote:

An entire country funnels practically every talented sportsman into distance running. There is almost a complete lack of obesity due to culture, kids are active instead of on Facebook and the PlayStation every leisure hour.

Iwould say that maybe 1 in 200 High schoolers in the West aspire to be a competitive marathoner. It's more like 195 out of 200 in Kenya.

It took years, but it seems finally you got some points which are common since decades.

Modern genetics reject the idea of human races. The difference are made with geographic location, climat and culture that change the shape and morphology of people.

Take the example of France, half of their Gold Olympic Medals in Marathon (before the 60s) comes from runner with North West African origine (Boughera El Ouafi 1928, Alain Mimoun 1956).

Also why Nigerian, Senegalese, Coast Ivory are best in sprint only while East African are good in middle and long distances?

In Morocco we have the second highest Mountains in Africa behind Kilimandjaro ... I know also this story of "big cataclysm" that separated Africa in two parts, millions of years ago.

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Passant wrote:

Modern genetics reject the idea of human races. The difference are made with geographic location, climat and culture that change the shape and morphology of people.

Take the example of France, half of their Gold Olympic Medals in Marathon (before the 60s) comes from runner with North West African origine (Boughera El Ouafi 1928, Alain Mimoun 1956).

Also why Nigerian, Senegalese, Coast Ivory are best in sprint only while East African are good in middle and long distances?

There are still physical anthropologists that claim "race" exists and is proven by the fact that they can tell ancestry by forensic studies for example. I think they aren't thinking clearly. Back to dogs.

Forensic studies of dog skeletons would show that a chihuahua is not a great dane , but it doesn't prove they are different species.

Anyway , I cant prove that East Africans are genetically superior middle distance, and distance runners. Don't know the science. Maybe Covette's heroes of the past had as much raw talent. In the modern era though, I don't think drugs alone explain the dominance, but covette sometimes doesn't seem to be saying that. Well drug may explain the dominance, but does not rule out exceptionalism short of the dominance we have seen.

It looks to me that Africans handle low body weights much more gracefully and maintain more power there then westerners. That's possibly genetic. Skinny westerners are usually uncoordinated. Take a skinny golden retriever vs. a skinny greyhound for instance.

Even with East African genetic superiority there would have been several, at least , genetic outliers from the much larger population and combined longer running history of the rest of the world. Ryun and Snell , Ingerwhatshisname, these people can be right up there and not disprove African superiority. Ever think about that Coevette?

Nothing like a good old 800m thread turning abruptly into a conversation on who is the best/who is doping etc etc.

To me, this is another example of the concept of best vs greatest.

Knowing a little bit about this event, my opinion is quite straight forwards.

BEST 800m runner ever is Wilson Kipketer. Kipketer had the tools to win from the front in express races (Athens '97), to win from the back in slow races (Gothenburg '95) and nobody can convince me if he hadn't gone out in 48.4 on that night in Zurich back in 1997, that he would have run well under 1.41 and set a record I don't think Rudisha would have broken.

GREATEST 800m runner ever? It's either Rudisha or Snell and it's a tough one to separate. Both have back to back Olympic golds, both broke WRs. Snell ran 1.44 on grass in the 60's (though honestly I think his 1.45.1 in winning Tokyo is probably more legit because it actually was on a track and not a 370 yard oval at Lancaster Park which he had to run around 2.4 times or whatever), both were very dominant.

I want to say Snell because he's a countryman and was absolutely my hero growing up - but it's hard to look past Rudisha and the 2 more world titles, plus dominance in Europe. If you want to assume he was clean then he probably had to overcome a bunch of guys cheating as well which is tough. I'm fine to go 1a and 1b for those guys depending on the narrative.

Mt Rushmore is a good one -

Kipketer

Snell

Rudisha

Juantorena

Ja Moran wrote:

Coevett wrote:

I don't know if Rudisha is a doper, I'd like to believe not but realistically it's certainly no more than 50/50. 4 of the top 11 Kenyan 800m runners from 2017 have already been suspended, so you're living in a fantasy world to think that doesn't suggest the possibility the fastest Kenyan of all-time might not have been clean.

I was talking about how you misspelled asterisk, which the other poster had hinted at obliquely.

5yw4y wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Not to mention the doping busts of the last decade ought to put an asterix next to every Kenyan great.

https://sep.yimg.com/ay/hanbook/the-adventures-of-asterix-20.jpg

I don't believe it.

There may be Kenyan doping problems, but the 800 is "the undopable event" -- name a successful 800 runner who was busted for doping. (NOT a 1500/800 long distance runner, a pure 800 man. UNDOPABLE.)

rupp-certified saladczar wrote:

5yw4y wrote:

https://sep.yimg.com/ay/hanbook/the-adventures-of-asterix-20.jpg

I don't believe it.

There may be Kenyan doping problems, but the 800 is "the undopable event" -- name a successful 800 runner who was busted for doping. (NOT a 1500/800 long distance runner, a pure 800 man. UNDOPABLE.)

Yuriy Borzakovskiy was the best athlete in the entire Russian Federation during the era when they were arguably doping even worse than Eastern Bloc era of the 80's and 90's. I say that because he won the hardest event in track and field (the mens 800m) at the Olympics and was the best 800m runner on earth for a period of 5 years.

Was Borza bused himself for doping? No even worse - his entire federation was and he was the best guy in that federation. If you want to contend that the only guy who was an outlier in the entire regime just happened to be the best guy (similar to the comical Usain Bolt vs the history of world sprinting argument), then you are even more stupid than your "800m is an UNDOPABLE event" rhetoric.