Could Nico young have beaten Mantz if he had been allowed to Run his own race

In distance running, the team does not come first. Smith's job is to help each athlete to run to their potential and the team score will take care of itself. Running the race as fast as possible, and helping the team, are the same thing.

Actually, Smith's job is to please his AD and elevate the profile of NAU. Team national championships do that more than individual performances.

Do you have any evidence that he is not helping each athlete run to their potential or that he is deliberately slowing them down? The ESPN interviews seemed more like a strategic recruiting pitch than anything to do with training and racing philosophy.

beentheredonethat wrote:

bowcoy wrote:

he ran a faster last 2k than everyone except mantz

That isn't true. Young closed in 6:14.

Mantz 5:57

Lynch 6:03

Sprout 6:05

Maier 6:05

Akers 6:05

Garnica 6:09

Beidenfeld 6:09

Meade 6:11

Dever 6:12

Bullock 6:12

Smeeton 6:12

Shumway 6:12

Osterstock 6:12

Leary 6:13

...

Young's last 1k was 3:10.3

(listed in finishing order, only included those who finished in top 40)

Mantz 2:57.8

Dever 3:07.7

Nur 3:09.2

Rodriguez 3:09.5

Grijalva 3:08.4

Lynch 3:00.8

Clinger 3:07.0

Hicks 3:07.5

Sprout 3:03.5

Bienenfield 3:05.4

Maier 3:02.6

Bullock 3:06.7

Akers 3:00.7

Alexander 3:08.0

Renfree 3:03.6

Nuguse 3:09.7

O'Leary 3:10.1

Smeeton 3:07.1

Garnica 3:05.7

El-Sandali 3:09.4

Sh*tsama 3:09.2 (LetsRun flagged his name for profanity)

Meade 3:08.1

RuppBuster wrote:

I know NAU is all about the final team score but I would have really liked to see Young allowed to go all out. Given their race earlier in the season its not out of the question he could have been the individual champ.

Discus

WHAT??? He didn't go out with Mantz because the pace was clearly too hot, end of discussion!

You numbskulls will try to over-analyze every frickin race that has ever been ran! Do you know what their 3k split was???? Nico's teammates DID NOT need him to stay with him, Nico was there because he couldn't run any faster. Going out with Mantz??? Nico would have blown up badly.

Can the OP and Mike Smith please stop this nonsense about how you don't run for the individual title, you run for the team title. As others have pointed out, they are one and the same.

The reality is this.

1) Nico Young's first 5k was a little slower than Mantz's and his 2nd 5k was A LOT slower. If the OP had anything to stand on, you would have seen Young with a faster 2nd 5k.

Mantz ran his first 5k in 14:27.6 and 2nd in 14:58.5. Young ran his first 4k in 14:34.3 and his second in 15:25.00. What about those splits make you think Young was holding back.

2) Do the math. Mantz lost to young by 32.2 seconds.

3) At 4k, Conner mantz was closer to Nico Young (3.2 seconds) than he was to Wesley Kiptoo (5.3 seconds). Yet Mantz actually won. Mantz won by holding b ack. If Young had gone out harder, he would have finished worse.

14:27.6, 14:58.5. 14:34.3 - 15:25.00

To further reinforce the point, several (including Cole Sprout) ran faster 2nd halves than Nico. He ran a great race, but was coming back to the field in the second half, rather than closing on Mantz. He probably played it about perfect and any more of an aggressive start probably wouldn’t have gone well.

rojo wrote:

2) Do the math. Mantz lost to young by 32.2 seconds.

Undeniable. And if someone believes otherwise, they’re a conspiracy theorist.

:-)

herbal T wrote:

To further reinforce the point, several (including Cole Sprout) ran faster 2nd halves than Nico. He ran a great race, but was coming back to the field in the second half, rather than closing on Mantz. He probably played it about perfect and any more of an aggressive start probably wouldn’t have gone well.

Semi-related to another thread where Nico and Ritz’s abilities were discussed...

As a true freshman, Ritz finished 4th and had the fastest last mile in the race. He was like 40th at the mile in 4:43, and basically maintained that pace throughout the race. I know someone that was passed by Ritz in the last 1-1.5 miles who said he was flying by people.

For those who don’t remember, or weren’t born yet, when Boaz hit the scene he was an incredible sight to see. He used to go out at suicidal paces. In this race, David Kimani- who ran 13:10 the summer before- tried to go out with him and ended up dropping out! I believe he had close to :30 on the field at one point.

1 Boaz Cheboiywo 28:47 EMU

2 1 Jorge Torres 29:06 Colorado

3 2 Alistair Cragg 29:10 Arkansas

4 3 D. Ritzenhein 29:11 Colorado

5 4 Luke Watson 29:19 Notre Dame

6 5 Ryan Shay 29:23 Notre Dame

7 6 Donald Sage 29:24 Stanford

8 7 Matt Tegenkamp 29:26 Wisconsin

9 8 Josh Spiker 29:29 Wisconsin

10 9 Travis Laird 29:31 N. Arizona

11 10 Alan Webb 29:38 Michigan

12 11 Louis Luchini 29:41 Stanford

SDSU Aztec wrote:

You are concerning.. wrote:

Is it a requirement for liberals to be angry and unhappy? Also, is the other requirement to make comments that deliberately put people's achievements down because they suffer from insecurity?

Mantz didn't run for two years, and has managed to acquire aerobic fitness again at an elite level. Taking three to four months off alone from a stress fracture is bad enough in trying to regain aerobic strength back at an elite level.

So why do you think it's political?

He's just another projecting conservative...best to ignore them while they throw their tantrums

I heard that nico went all out. Nico has had an injury lately and just getting him to the starting line was a challenge is what i was told

If that's true. His placing 4th is more impressive.

OregonAlum91 wrote:

If that's true. His placing 4th is more impressive.

yeah and they were pretty pissed that people on here were suggesting his performance was subpar as well

Mantz and Nico already raced this year and Mantz won. Plus Mantz is like 36 years old or something like that.

Maybe the fact that you think that Mike Smith is spouting nonsense is part of the reason you weren't one-hundredth as successful as him as a coach. The individual and team titles aren't one and the same other than that they are both titles. To run for the individual title is to put it all out there and risk blowing up, which could cost your team the title if there was a large gap between 1-4 and 5, as in NAU's case. Running in a pack, as NAU did magnificently, helps the weaker individuals, because it is proven and easily observable that it is easier to run with your teammates in races. This is why national champs often hold back their top individuals to run with teammates in the top ten. Sometimes they let them go all out the last 2k, sometimes not. Talking about team first is also a way to get your runners to respond in training, racing, and ordinary life, because thinking team first means that you help everyone on the team whenever possible and work harder for your comrades than you would for yourselves. With four guys in the top ten, it certainly worked. And I was someone who really doubted that they were healthy enough to do this. It was obvious that Nur and Ferro were training and racing really well, but Grijalva was falling behind in a team workout, Young was nowhere to be seen and supposedly nursing a calf injury, which can totally undermine your ability to go fast and your confidence that you can do it without tearing the calf, and the 5-7 guys were way back in that recorded workout recently. But they came through on top incredibly, which was most surprising from Grijalva the way he had looked recently. At full strength, maybe Young would have had the ability to contend with Mantz, and so would Grijalva, although maybe he'd have a better chance on a flat course, but with Young not trying to gap his teammates it's not clear whether he was all out. Slowing down to stay with teammates could also explain why his 2nd 5k was slower. I think it was part team and part not knowing whether his calf would hold. We'll see these guys, if healthy, put down a bunch of sub-13:25 performances outdoors, maybe some high 7:30s, and I expect a 13:18 or better from Young.

Paradigm blindness

The concept of paradigm blindness implies that individuals, groups, and organizations are unwilling or unable to accept any challenge to their core ways of making sense of the world and determining how they interpret and make sense of what goes on around them.

No, he raced him twice this year and lost both times