rojo wrote:
High Fidelity wrote:
Why did you feel it imperative to include is age and the amount it was a PB? Hmm?
To let people know how amazing the run was so people can realize how the shoes are totally changing the sport. Some people may not now who Ben True is. But running a 25 second PB after being a pro for ten plus years isn't normal.
Based on the run by Gwen , the super shoes are 2 minutes slower in a 10k.
Rojo- It would be interesting to have him on the podcast and you can discuss it. He’s a pretty open, smart guy and I’m sure he’d welcome a debate and opportunity to explain his performance. Seems a bit better than casting dispersion on an athlete with a long, successful career.
old man strength wrote:
Rojo- It would be interesting to have him on the podcast and you can discuss it. He’s a pretty open, smart guy and I’m sure he’d welcome a debate and opportunity to explain his performance. Seems a bit better than casting dispersion on an athlete with a long, successful career.
I will second this. This would be great. It’s awesome to see him run fast. He just needs to start drinking some beet juice and he will make the team.
I also agree with the poster that said that getting dropped by Saucony was the best thing for him. I think True said that he has also been running 100mpw consistently for the first time in his career, so perhaps not just the shoes. But the shoes were obviously an improvement in my opinion.
Old Chris Evert wrote:
rojo wrote:
To let people know how amazing the run was so people can realize how the shoes are totally changing the sport. Some people may not now who Ben True is. But running a 25 second PB after being a pro for ten plus years isn't normal.
Based on the run by Gwen , the super shoes are 2 minutes slower in a 10k.
well played
old man strength wrote:
Rojo- It would be interesting to have him on the podcast and you can discuss it. He’s a pretty open, smart guy and I’m sure he’d welcome a debate and opportunity to explain his performance. Seems a bit better than casting dispersion on an athlete with a long, successful career.
Come on, Rojo, why not?
kanga shoe wrote:
The shoes are ridiculous, might be 30-40 sec for a 10k.
Times are becoming irrelevant, crazy shoes, paced time trials, all set up to be perfect, Ketones are still not banned.
He ran 27:40's a couple years ago in a poorly paced Payton Jordan race, his 27:14 is finally running what his 5k times show he is capable of for 10k. The spikes probably do help a little bit, but no way it's 30-40 seconds in a 10k, I'd give you maybe 10-15 seconds. So this would be like a 27:28 in old spikes. And probably 27:50 in 1980 spikes, and probably 28:15 in 1940 spikes on a cinder track. There are always going to be improved surfaces and shoes, get over it. Eventually there will be some material that allows for a one ounce spike that still has supportive structure and people will run even faster.
slripeepirls wrote:
rojo wrote:
To let people know how amazing the run was so people can realize how the shoes are totally changing the sport. Some people may not now who Ben True is. But running a 25 second PB after being a pro for ten plus years isn't normal.
A grown man fomenting gossip rumor and wild speculation isn’t normal either. Serious question, do you measure that thing between your legs in microns?
What are you talking about? Saying someone was wearing certain spikes in now gossip? Jeez this country is soft now. And how is it wild speculation? It’s one thing if you want to disagree about the spikes but to say it’s wild speculation is insane. You’re just in denial if you want to say to shoes are playing no role
Thinking it's that big of a difference is a joke wrote:
kanga shoe wrote:
The shoes are ridiculous, might be 30-40 sec for a 10k.
Times are becoming irrelevant, crazy shoes, paced time trials, all set up to be perfect, Ketones are still not banned.
He ran 27:40's a couple years ago in a poorly paced Payton Jordan race, his 27:14 is finally running what his 5k times show he is capable of for 10k. The spikes probably do help a little bit, but no way it's 30-40 seconds in a 10k, I'd give you maybe 10-15 seconds. So this would be like a 27:28 in old spikes. And probably 27:50 in 1980 spikes, and probably 28:15 in 1940 spikes on a cinder track. There are always going to be improved surfaces and shoes, get over it. Eventually there will be some material that allows for a one ounce spike that still has supportive structure and people will run even faster.
The big difference is up until now, the main goal of a racing shoe was to essentially prevent the least amount of energy loss and still providing some cushioning. The adidas boost material was a big breakthrough because they would return something like 85-90% of the runners energy.
These shoes are a completely different story. The material is not only not losing much energy due to the cushioning, but giving you added return due to the carbon fiber plate. If you haven’t run in a carbon fiber plated “super shoe” then you should refrain from commenting. As soon as you wear one, you instantly realize this is something that really is changing the sport for the worst
Thinking it's that big of a difference is a joke wrote:
He ran 27:40's a couple years ago in a poorly paced Payton Jordan race, his 27:14 is finally running what his 5k times show he is capable of for 10k. The spikes probably do help a little bit, but no way it's 30-40 seconds in a 10k, I'd give you maybe 10-15 seconds. So this would be like a 27:28 in old spikes. And probably 27:50 in 1980 spikes, and probably 28:15 in 1940 spikes on a cinder track. There are always going to be improved surfaces and shoes, get over it. Eventually there will be some material that allows for a one ounce spike that still has supportive structure and people will run even faster.
FWIW, the WR didn't get down to 28:15 until the 60s.
This is why I like XC the best. Times don’t matter just place. Run over a natural surface and see who can get first to the finish line. Caring about times in track now is waste with these super tracks, shoes, pacing lights...
My suggestion is we stop discussing times all together and focus on place.
High Fidelity wrote:
100% speculation. I expect you to apologize to Ben True. He will he disgusted when he reads this thread
Why would he be disgusted? I added in his age and the pb amount to point out how amazing and minboggling his run is. There is nothing negative about adding that,
If Ben True was a 26:44 person, then people might think 27:14 was bad. I provided context.
If I ran a top 10 all time US performance, I'd hope that a few people would care enough to talk about it. I'd be pumped to be relevant enough again to be talked about on LRC.
Agreed. It was a fine performance but to ignore the new variable (super spikes) would not be fair and total accounting. I like Ben True but this was mind-boggling for late February at the book end of a career.
jabouko wrote:
Rojo!
cmon every time you forget the other parts of the equation. Same thing with the Oregon milers
Its not JUST the shoes
its DragonFlys + long uninterrupted train blocs + nothing to peak for + years of building endurance
You don't think Ben True with everything else he's done could thrive in a pandemic situation, train hard and smart, and THEN put on the spikes for a fire time?
I'm not forgetting "ther other parts of the equation." I never said it was "just the shoes". the shoes are probably worth 1-2%. But 1-2% at this level is everything.
I think Ben True can thrive during a panedmic. I think most distance runners have that discipline.
Here's how I'll re-phrase it to you. If True was wearing his old spikes, how fast do you think he would have run? I think he would have been hard pressed to get the standard.
Or how about this? If Grant Fisher was forced to race last night in Ben True's spikes from 2019, who do you think wins? Firsher or True? I don't think it's even close. True.
If I'm Molly Huddle right now or any athlete with legitimate US Olympic aspirations with a non-super shoe sponsor, I'm terrified.
rojo wrote:
High Fidelity wrote:
Why did you feel it imperative to include is age and the amount it was a PB? Hmm?
To let people know how amazing the run was so people can realize how the shoes are totally changing the sport. Some people may not now who Ben True is. But running a 25 second PB after being a pro for ten plus years isn't normal.
Thank you for clarifying the changes in our sport! This is the new norm, PB's across all events.
Many fine performances by Americans and Aussies these days. But the main question is: are they closing the gap to the East Africans????
I would say the shoes are 1s per 1000 for track events. So we are still seeing some pretty amazing performances, but it's not as rediculous. But ultimately it's good enough to put non "super spike" users at a disadvantage. I don't think these spikes are as much of a difference maker as the vaporflys due to a combo of the low stack height/shorter race distance
briswiss wrote:
slripeepirls wrote:
A grown man fomenting gossip rumor and wild speculation isn’t normal either. Serious question, do you measure that thing between your legs in microns?
What are you talking about? Saying someone was wearing certain spikes in now gossip? Jeez this country is soft now. And how is it wild speculation? It’s one thing if you want to disagree about the spikes but to say it’s wild speculation is insane. You’re just in denial if you want to say to shoes are playing no role
I would like to respond to you in a way that makes my opinions clear but it’s painfully obvious your comprehension is somewhere around nil. Shouldn't you be out harassing people who are living their lives in a way you find deficient or irresponsible? At some point in your life you will realize it’s important to reflect on subjects you intend to weigh-in on.
Thinking it's that big of a difference is a joke wrote:
kanga shoe wrote:
The shoes are ridiculous, might be 30-40 sec for a 10k.
Times are becoming irrelevant, crazy shoes, paced time trials, all set up to be perfect, Ketones are still not banned.
He ran 27:40's a couple years ago in a poorly paced Payton Jordan race, his 27:14 is finally running what his 5k times show he is capable of for 10k. The spikes probably do help a little bit, but no way it's 30-40 seconds in a 10k, I'd give you maybe 10-15 seconds. So this would be like a 27:28 in old spikes. And probably 27:50 in 1980 spikes, and probably 28:15 in 1940 spikes on a cinder track. There are always going to be improved surfaces and shoes, get over it. Eventually there will be some material that allows for a one ounce spike that still has supportive structure and people will run even faster.
Exactly, the guy has run 13:02, his old pr at 10k as is quite often the case for many was not reflective of what he was capable of when in his best shape. Ideal pace, weather and fitness timing are much rarer in the 10k with the infrequency fast attempts are made.
mrr82 wrote:
Thinking it's that big of a difference is a joke wrote:
He ran 27:40's a couple years ago in a poorly paced Payton Jordan race, his 27:14 is finally running what his 5k times show he is capable of for 10k. The spikes probably do help a little bit, but no way it's 30-40 seconds in a 10k, I'd give you maybe 10-15 seconds. So this would be like a 27:28 in old spikes. And probably 27:50 in 1980 spikes, and probably 28:15 in 1940 spikes on a cinder track. There are always going to be improved surfaces and shoes, get over it. Eventually there will be some material that allows for a one ounce spike that still has supportive structure and people will run even faster.
Exactly, the guy has run 13:02, his old pr at 10k as is quite often the case for many was not reflective of what he was capable of when in his best shape. Ideal pace, weather and fitness timing are much rarer in the 10k with the infrequency fast attempts are made.
Um yea, that's nice. The guy is 35 years old, been at this for a while, trending downward and then a big PR, not just a PR but an all-time performance out of thin air. He is physically past his peak, the shoes are worth 30-40 seconds in a 10k, 3-4 minutes in a marathon, remember that race just a couple of weeks ago where a bunch of guys who couldn't make the US Oly team ran under 2:10, gimme a break.
So when you isolate specifically the shoes, I just don't know.
This is what I am considering:
1. Nike athletes have done well in both the Dragonfly/Air Zoom Victory, some in protos in Doha '19.
2. Some non Nike companies (On specifically) allow their athletes to wear Nike spikes.
3. However, the performance of ADIDAS athletes like:
- Gudaf Tsegay - 3:53 and 1:57 in Adidas Avantis
- Bryce Hoppel - 1:44 and 2:16 in Adidas Avantis
in "regular" spikes, or Justyn Knight who runs for Reebok (owned by Adidas) has been exceptional.
4. When Houlihan and Schweizer ran 14:23 and 14:26, Houlihan wore 2014 Nike Victories (either Vic 2s or Vic Elites), while Schweizer wore the Dragonflies. I think this was reflective of their fitness at the time, but I will concede that any potential effects of the DF's are multiplied as distance increases.
Here's how I'll re-phrase it to you. If True was wearing his old spikes, how fast do you think he would have run? I think he would have been hard pressed to get the standard.
Or how about this? If Grant Fisher was forced to race last night in Ben True's spikes from 2019, who do you think wins? Firsher or True? I don't think it's even close. True.
Yes, Rojo, I think Ben True in a pandemic setting, with everything considered, wearing Nike Matumbos or Mambas would have run sub 27:28. I do not think the Dragonflies would have been the SOLE thing that allowed him to break that barrier - rather, I think they may have given him some slight margin in terms of sore legs AND the mental placebo of wearing the shoes. Similarly, Fisher would have been able to run sub 27:28 in standard Nike Victorys/Mambas/Matumbos, or whatever Saucony spikes True was wearing. He's developed tremendous range and has the aerobic strength to run a time like that. It may have been harder for him, but I still think Fisher could have kicked hard for it in a slightly-slower paced race.
However, if we find out that Adidas has been giving prototypes to athletes, I retract everything I said and humbly apologize.