The indoor 800 game has definitely changed. A few years ago these types of meets would be won in 1:47 and the indoor world championships winning time would be 1:45.x. Now runners are really getting after it indoor. Erik Sowinski has been running on the indoor circuit his whole career, yet this year, at age 31, runs a 1-second PB.
SanDiegorunner wrote:
I don’t see anyone beating Brazier! He’s so strong and his 400m speed is faster than Giles (please prove me wrong if I am)
What does his 400m speed have to do with anything?
Pretty sure Emmanuel Korir is the fastest 800m over 1 lap I've heard of since Juantorena (44.21) and that didn't help him even make the final in Doha (even against Brazier in the semi...)
POS BIB ATHLETE COUNTRY MARK
1 1871 Donavan BRAZIER USA 1:44.87 Q
2 395 Marco AROP CAN 1:45.07 Q
3 1288 Emmanuel Kipkurui KORIR KEN 1:45.19
4 1905 Brannon KIDDER USA 1:45.62
5 1379 Mostafa SMAILI MAR 1:45.78
6 1645 Tshepo TSH$TE RSA 1:46.08
7 104 Yassine HETHAT ALG 1:46.15
8 851 Jamie WEBB GBR 1:48.44
Not sure if I get the logic. I think Brazier can beat Giles because he's a more complete 800m runner. Now Bryce Hoppel on the other hand....
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
What does his 400m speed have to do with anything?
Pretty sure Emmanuel Korir is the fastest 800m over 1 lap I've heard of since Juantorena (44.21) and that didn't help him even make the final in Doha (even against Brazier in the semi...)
POS BIB ATHLETE COUNTRY MARK
1 1871 Donavan BRAZIER USA 1:44.87 Q
2 395 Marco AROP CAN 1:45.07 Q
3 1288 Emmanuel Kipkurui KORIR KEN 1:45.19
4 1905 Brannon KIDDER USA 1:45.62
5 1379 Mostafa SMAILI MAR 1:45.78
6 1645 Tshepo TSH$TE RSA 1:46.08
7 104 Yassine HETHAT ALG 1:46.15
8 851 Jamie WEBB GBR 1:48.44
Not sure if I get the logic. I think Brazier can beat Giles because he's a more complete 800m runner. Now Bryce Hoppel on the other hand....
I agree with your point on Brazier. I still see no reason to believe Giles would take down Hoppel. Hoppel has the faster PB (don't really care about indoor vs. outdoor), and with maybe one rare exception in a race of any significance (Pan Ams) has shown exceptional racing instincts in. Don't think a nice indoor performance changes the equation. If he improves his PB and Hoppel starts flatlining maybe, but Hoppel is the brighter prospect. Not to mention he's 3 and a half years younger.
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
So what's different now?
1) Indoor used to be a "training blip" for elites, the lack of competition in 2020 due to Covid see's it as more of a release of pent-up frustration, nerves, fitness caused by the pandemic
2) Athletes have been forced to be even more disciplined in their lives than normal. It really is training-home-training-home. This might seem like something inconsequential but cumulatively the extra potential rest athletes are getting could be more important than we think.
3) Athletes are desperate to run fast. Why? 2020 showed there were no guarantees. The Diamond league was gone and the Olympics postponed. But they still need to hit performances to keep their deals and/or keep their deals. Every outing now - indoor or outdoor has meaning.
4) Footwear arms race - hey I have also been vocal in saying that the realities of the new "super spikes" are that they aren't in reality that new or super. The tech/advantages you see in the road racing product came from track product (stiff curved plates) so that doesn't apply in reverse. What has come from road to track is improvement in foam cushioning which is really still minimal when you are talking 8-10mm of foam max underfoot in any spike (don't be fooled by high visual sidewalls). What it might be doing is helping longer distances in terms of cushion and how cushion reduces fatigue - especially post race and training. It's not making athletes perform at higher levels than what their potential is, more so they are helping athletes better reach their maximum potentials. Either way the whole situation is undoubtedly making athletes believe they have super product which is elevating them and that in itself is highly effective when it comes to performance.
This This This.
Too many people blubbering on this board about how X athlete is running "too fast" and it's all suspicious. I don't doubt that new shoes are affecting things, but we can't prove that yet.
In the meantime, the uniqueness of the current reality and its performance byproduct is undeniable: indoor track is happening in a totally different context, with different training levels leading up to it and different motivations for racing, both personal and financial.
coahc wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Fantastic news! Didn't expect that.
Middle-distance is completely stacked in the UK now.
same here in Australia with 800,1500,mile and two mile indoor records broken in last week. Something doesn't seem right.
The 1500 and two mile records were broken in non-super spikes.
The question Giles has to answer is whether he can do it in a championship race. He got out in front tonight and TTd an amazing result. We'll see when he's back in Turan for the Euro Champs if he can turn that speed into hardware. My money stays on Brazier but we could see a Brit on the podium in Tokyo
runderun wrote:
The question Giles has to answer is whether he can do it in a championship race. He got out in front tonight and TTd an amazing result. We'll see when he's back in Turan for the Euro Champs if he can turn that speed into hardware. My money stays on Brazier but we could see a Brit on the podium in Tokyo
I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. The tone this seems to be taking on is that this 1:43.6 because it is indoors is worth a 1:42-mid outdoors or something. I think a prior poster, Salvatore, was onto something with his assessment about why times are so fast presently. It's a 1:43.6, which is a big step forward for Giles and makes him now in the mix. The question for me on Giles is if he will build on this and get sub-1:43 shape by the summer. If he stands pat, he can make the final maybe, but it's doubtful to me he'd seriously contend for a medal.
LRC focuses a bit too much on shoes imo. Obviously shoe tech matters but a giant paragraph after every run that serves to discredit the performance, whether intended or not, isn't necessary. We know shoe tech is better but there are also tons of factors at play. We still don't know the *full* degree to which spikes cause or are correlated to fast times. Articles like this only mention shoe tech when the time also might be affected by more focused training during a pandemic and willingness to go for it in races with limited opportunities to run fast to attract/retain sponsors.
I thought Mario Fraoli did a good job outlining this topic in the link below in a rational way. He is not saying shoe tech doesn't matter. I am not saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying that shoe tech is included in every article on LRC after every good performance and I don't think that's altogether helpful. It's just a bit off-putting to see again and again, Ya'll have a platform where you can elevate fast times and runners with good stories etc etc. We all know about the shoes. If you're trying to help the sport, replace that paragraph with something we don't know about Giles. Give us some info that would make us like this result even more.
Moving forward, maybe we compare athletes by decade and establish world bests every 5 or 10 years but, then again, that sort of already happens naturally. World records are somewhat cyclical and have gotten faster as athletes have gotten better and as technology has improved. 5k & up are more recent for the men & women. Records below that seems to be 10-20 years old or so and might be due for an update shoe tech or not. I just think we're becoming a little too numb to how good some of these performances are when we can't even wait a day before say but what about the shoes.
Just my $.02.
Brazier's season opener was 1:44.21 so I wouldn't be ready to say he gets beat by Giles. Especially with a better pacer than the one he had the last meet. This year is a bit of a mystery as far as reading into what will happen at the Olympics due to extra prep time, fewer doping tests, new shoes, and athletes developing over the past couple of years.
runderun wrote:
The question Giles has to answer is whether he can do it in a championship race. He got out in front tonight and TTd an amazing result. We'll see when he's back in Turan for the Euro Champs if he can turn that speed into hardware. My money stays on Brazier but we could see a Brit on the podium in Tokyo
I was thinking maybe a Brit. But my thought was around Burgin.
the troof wrote:
I was thinking maybe a Brit. But my thought was around Burgin.
When I saw on Instagram this morning an athletics post asking if Coe's record could be broken tonight, I assumed that Daniel Rowden must be running.
If Max Burgin takes another step up this summer, we could have three Brits in the final and perhaps all genuine medal contenders.
Ditto for the 1500m.
Actually, we're forgetting a little here that Jamie Webb went under Coe's record too. Things are getting pretty crazy for middle-distance running in the UK.
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
4) Footwear arms race - hey I have also been vocal in saying that the realities of the new "super spikes" are that they aren't in reality that new or super. The tech/advantages you see in the road racing product came from track product (stiff curved plates) so that doesn't apply in reverse. What has come from road to track is improvement in foam cushioning which is really still minimal when you are talking 8-10mm of foam max underfoot in any spike (don't be fooled by high visual sidewalls). What it might be doing is helping longer distances in terms of cushion and how cushion reduces fatigue - especially post race and training. It's not making athletes perform at higher levels than what their potential is, more so they are helping athletes better reach their maximum potentials. Either way the whole situation is undoubtedly making athletes believe they have super product which is elevating them and that in itself is highly effective when it comes to performance.
I know we shouldn't be crediting all these performances just to shoes, and that it's tiresome seeing the shoes mentioned. But it seems to me you haven't actually tried any of the new superspikes. They are without a doubt new and very super. I have never experienced spikes like this before. Ive changed from workout to workout between old and new, and the times are now comparable. The lactate is lower, the legs are fresher etc.
Meant to say: the time are not comparable.
Yes and Brazier isn’t in serious shape. He’s relayed as much. Expect 1:42-type ability in each race when he is.
Yup, Webb with that mid-1:44 indoors is on par with Hoppel & Brazier. I'm sure he could drop a second and a half outdoors by mid summer.
Coevett wrote:
the troof wrote:
I was thinking maybe a Brit. But my thought was around Burgin.
When I saw on Instagram this morning an athletics post asking if Coe's record could be broken tonight, I assumed that Daniel Rowden must be running.
If Max Burgin takes another step up this summer, we could have three Brits in the final and perhaps all genuine medal contenders.
Ditto for the 1500m.
Actually, we're forgetting a little here that Jamie Webb went under Coe's record too. Things are getting pretty crazy for middle-distance running in the UK.
But at least we know these are clean performances. These Brits are not capable of using PEDs.
Also as I have been repeating ad nauseam, indoors is often faster than outdoors. Faster shoes, faster indoor tracks and CLEAN Brits....voila!
Coevett wrote:
When I saw on Instagram this morning an athletics post asking if Coe's record could be broken tonight, I assumed that Daniel Rowden must be running.
If Max Burgin takes another step up this summer, we could have three Brits in the final and perhaps all genuine medal contenders.
Ditto for the 1500m.
Actually, we're forgetting a little here that Jamie Webb went under Coe's record too. Things are getting pretty crazy for middle-distance running in the UK.
Strong to say perhaps all medal contenders. 3 getting in the final would be a major achievement. Yes, it's conceivable all these guys could progress to the low 1:43/sub-1:43 level needed to be a medal contender. I'd say Canada, USA and Kenya would all be more likely to put two guys in the final than the UK.
Coevett wrote:
Actually, we're forgetting a little here that Jamie Webb went under Coe's record too. Things are getting pretty crazy for middle-distance running in the UK.
Not really crazy Coevett. Just the normal result of a long time going on doping regimen.
Brits dope as much as most other countrys, since a few years more sophisticated.
EVOLUTION is why times get faster, every generation improves upon the one before it.
This 1 Minute clip from the 1960's CLEARLY shows how people have improved. Look at all the Scrawny/puny looking kids, then go drive by any High School (Once Covid is over) and you will see the kids are CLEARLY on average bigger, stronger and faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0yQth3QEXtA
Coevett wrote:
we could have three Brits in the final and perhaps all genuine medal contenders. Ditto for the 1500m.
Betting on the brits in the olympics is like betting against Tom Brady in the superbowl ?