DISCUSSION does anaerobic training destroys aerobic talent?

What does mean Anaerobic Training ? If you think that every type of training over the Threshold is the same, you make a big mistake. We have different goals for different anaerobic training :

a) SPEED (duration till 15.0) : of sure is anaerobic, but (for example in very short sprint climbing) the quantity of lactate that you produce is very little, so you can recover in very short time. This is a type of training that doesn't have any bad influence on Aerobic training, on the contrary, if you use many short repetitions with very short recovery (1:00 / 1:30) (for ex., 6 x 60m at 98% of your max speed) can help your fast fibres in working in oxydative way. This is a good way for training Fast Fibers for increasing their Aerobic ability. For ex., Gebrselassie used this type of training very frequently.

b) SPEED (duration till 40.0 / 45.0) : In a single test, you have the expression of your max LACTIC POWER if you run a competition. If you use to run at 90% of your max speed, you produce a good quantity of lactate, but you can recovery completely (under your Threshold) in a time lasting from 4 to 8 min, depending on your attitude and vyour training. For example, if you are an athlete able running 800m in 2:00 and 400m in 54.0, your best in 300m can be about 38.5 / 39.0. In this case, to reduce your speed of 10% it means (I repeat, this is not mathematics, but is an easy way for giving the percentages in athletics) 39.0 + 3.9 = 43.0 about. In this case, you run faster than your speed of 800m, but you don't have a very big accumulation of lactate. Your recovery time depends on 2 factors : your AEROBIC POWER (or your Threshold level) and your ability in lactate tolerance. In this case, a right combination between Aerobic training at high intensity (from 95 to 105% of your Threshold, running a little bit faster than your Threshold is necessary for improving your Aerobic Power)and Anaerobic Training at low intensity is the key for increasing your lactate tolerance.

c) SPEED (duration from 40.0 /45.0, like before) : If you run at 98% of your max (in the previous case, 39.0 + 0.8, about 40.0), your production of lactate is higher, and the accumulation in your fibres too. The final goal is different : you run for improving your ability in PRODUCING LACTATE (Anaerobic CAPACITY). This is a dangerous type of training, if there is not support enough from the Aerobic System.

So, the stair that you have to use is this one :

a) ALACTIC SPEED (goal : to increase your Nervous ability, your Rapidity, your Technique) : Lasting no longer than 10.0 - Execution at max intensity, using hills better than flat courses.

b) SHORT SPEED ENDURANCE, with repetitions at 95/98% of max intensity, lasting no longer than 10.0 and short recovery (ex : 6 x 60m rec.1:00) (goal : to increase the oxydative ability of your fast fibres)

c) SPEED (lasting till 20/25.0) having the goal to increase your ability in max speed under the point of view of Nervous Cohordination and Nervous Endurance, using single test with very long recovery (sometime good also for distance runners)

d) SPEED ENDURANCE (repetitions at 90/95% on distance till 150m for 800m runners, 400m for 10k runners) with short (but not VERY SHORT) recovery (for ex., 3/4 min) having the goal to increase your Anaerobic Capacity at high speed). The system for evolving this training is TO USE THE SAME SPEEDS and THE SAME VOLUME, trying to reduce your recovery times, in order to improve your lactate tolerance

e) TRAINING FOR ANAEROBIC POWER (is your ability in running faster possible distances from 300m to 600m, depending on your event). You must run at max intensity, this is a training but also a test, and the competition is a training too. Your goal are to become able to produce more lactate (for example, if you run 300m in 38.0 with 12mmol, the most important limiting factor is that youe engine doesn't have POWER enough. So you must become able to produce 15mmol, and when you are able, you can run in 36.5). If you are a sprinter, 300m is the longer distance that you can use for this goal. If you are a distance runner, 500-600m are better.

In this case, you can investigate your specific attitude in becoming a longer runner, controlling the correlation coefficient between your PB in 300 and 600m. If you have a young runner, you can, for ex, finding two different types of athletes (when are not still prepared) :

a) The boy (15y. old) runs 42 and 1:30 (600),so 14.0 for each 100m in 300 and 15.0 in 600. The correlation is 93,33%. THIS GUY HAS HIGH PERCENTAGE OF SLOW FIBRES AND FAST of II Type, so his attitude is TO HAVE A GOOD TOLERANCE TO HIS LACTATE. In this case, the main type of his training must be, in the future, around his speed of 800m, and he can look for 1500m in 3-4 years. This athlete must not use too much absolute speed regarding ANAEROBIC CAPACITY, but sometimes max. speed for increasing his ANAEROBIC POWER. His training is for increasing ANAEROBIC RESISTANCE, strictly connected with the Threshold Levels.

b)The boy runs 39 and 1:36, 13.0 against 16.0. The correlation is 81,2%. This guy has high percentage of Fast Fibres and low percentage of slow. This guy is not strong under Aerobic point of view. He must use more high speed, less volume, long recovery. He can increase his TOLERANCE using high percentage of speed but not very much volume.

An example : CRAM ran 1:42.88 without being very fast, but was able running 10 x 300m between 39 and 40, with very short recovery (from 30.0 to 45.0). This is a LACTIC WORKOUT that is possible only for athletes having a VERY HIGH TOLERANCE, very strong under the Aerobic Power.

KONCHELLAH ran his first 400m, when was 18years old, in 45.1, SO WAS A SPRINTER. He was able running 2 times 300m in 33.0 with 10 min interval. His training for increasing HIS SPECIFIC ENDURANCE was to run 4 times in 35.0 reducing his recovery to 6 min. For him, this training was ENDURANCE, and he never could try to run 10 x 300 in 43.0 with only 30.0 recovery. His attitude was completely different.

So, SPEED in connected with the percentage of your max speed, but, longer is the distance, bigger is the quantity of lactate that you can accumulate in your fibres. What is really dangerous is to accumulate too much lactate, without having the ability to remove in short time.

ANAEROBIC POWER : your ability in using for short time your engine at max no. of revolutions (single test, and you have to reach the higher lactate level possible)

ANAEROBIC CAPACITY : your ability in PRODUCING a high quantity of lactate. System for training this ability is to run not many repetitions (may be 3-4 times) at 95% of max intensity, with medium recovery time (4/6 min). This is connected with your Anaerobic Power.

ANAEROBIC RESISTANCE : your ability in TOLERANCE of your lactate. Systen for training this ability is to run many repetitions (may be 10-15 times) at a level from 100 to 105% of your AnThreshold, with short recovery (may be 1:00 / 2:00). This is connected with your AEROBIC POWER.

AEROBIC POWER : your ability in removing very quickly the lactate that can produce, running fast. A combined training in the area An Resistance / Aerobic Power can help you in growing your Threshold. You can uselong fast continuous run from 20 to 40min, depending on your event, and long intervals (from 1000m to 3000m) at speed a little faster than your Threshold with very short recovery

AEROBIC ENDURANCE : your ability in staying long time at the level of your Threshold. For specialists of HM, the full time of HM is a mark of their AE. For increasing this ability, the only way is to run FAST long time.

AEROBIC RESISTANCE : Is all the long run at low intensity. This training has only a GENERAL mean. The speed that you use for developing this ability, in 2-3 years must become the same that you use, at your beginning, for developing Aerobic Endurance, so every speed moves higher.

In too many cases you mix up SPEED and LENGTH, thinking that if you go for 200m is speed. Speed depends on your speed, not on the distance. 200m slow are 200m slow, nothing to do with Anaerobic Workout.

Not quite what you asked for, but relevant to the discussion:

HIGH LACTATE LEVELS AT TRAINING COMPROMISE AEROBIC PERFORMANCE

Simoes, H. G., Campbell, C. S., & Kokubun, E. (1998). High and low lactic acidosis training: Effects upon aerobic and anaerobic performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 30(5), Supplement abstract 932.

Two groups of four volunteer runners trained similarly for four weeks. During that period, one group trained three times per week eliciting blood lactate concentrations of at least 10 mM and the other maintained lactate levels below 6 mM for a similar number of training sessions. Before and after the training period, Ss were tested for an all-out 3,000 m run, 4 mmol/l threshold, steady state heart rate while running at 200 m/min velocity, mean velocity in 5 x 30-m sprints, mean velocity in a 60-m sprint, and mean velocity in a 300-m run.

The low-acidosis training group showed anaerobic gains, an increase in 300-m velocity, and aerobic improvement with a lower heart rate during the 200m/min run and non-significant faster 3,000-m time. The high-acidosis training group also showed anaerobic gains with higher velocity and lactate levels in the 300-m run. However, aerobic performance was compromised. Time for 3000-m run was slower and a higher heart rate was evidenced in the 200 m/min run.

It was concluded that high acidosis training compromises aerobic fitness.

Implication. Too much lactate tolerance (high acidosis) training can cause aerobic performance to decline. Anaerobic training that only stimulates moderate accumulated lactate levels enhances anaerobic performance and maintains aerobic fitness.

Just as a caution for those who believe that short reps must be alactic.

Here's an example of a young guy running 5 x 50m reps with 2 min walk recovery.

Rep / peak HR / rep time / end lactate

1 - 147 HR - 5.8 secs / 3.7 mM

2 - 168 HR - 5.9 secs - 6.3 mM

3 - 169 HR - 5.9 secs - 12.8 mM

4 - 179 HR - 6.0 secs - 11.2 mM

5 - 178 HR - 6.0 secs - 10.2 mM

(Source: Training Lactate Pulse Rate (p163): PGJM Janssen, Leisure Systems International, UK. 1987)

Sir Lance,

My point was not on exactly what they were doing (ie, block starts, 150s, 600s, etc) but on the percentage of intensity relative to overall volume.

"Most sprinters (the good ones) train along the same lines as good distance runners. If you look at the logs of Mo Greene or Michael Johnson, you'll see that 75-80% of all their running is moderate-to-easy running."

Cuz they gotta WU and CD.

Sir Lance -alot

Medical evidence on what happens if you train anaerobically too hard and too often I have not. However I have done this twice myself over lengthy periods (5-6 years) and seen the full effect - I have one good written year of evidence of my own stupidity. I have also inherited three athletes who have done the same (one with full written evidence) and have managed to return them to normality through restructured training and diet.

Tike

in my experience, it is not the session that counts but how you do it. I remember well one athlete I trained with who used to run 10x400m in 60 with one minute rest for one of his main sessions each week. He also ran hard on other days on the road. He did not improve. I ran the same session using my pulse watch to keep myself close to threshold and ran 72 each 400m with 100m slow jog. My session improved to under 70 over a couple of years and his went backwards to 62. He never beat me at any distance. he was under 30 I was 41.

The key seems to me to keep the majority of sessions under threshold by using your HRM. I do believe that once every 7-10 days you need to do either a race or a hard session when you ignore what the HRM is saying and run as you feel. These session should relate in some way to the distance you want to run in the racing season. Read the Cova comments later in the thread. Frankly that is a master class in coaching on one page. I wish I had known that when I was running.

Sorry

Canova not Cova - shame on me.......

are we talking about use it or lose it high mileage condition or natural condition?

I was refering to the aerobic fitness that comes from high mileage conditioning.

Mr. Canova's post is quite fascinating and I will be studying that for a while. He refers a few times to the danger of doing a lot of highly anaerobic running (ie 98% of max or of long duration at high intensity) without the aerobic fitness to support it, because you accumulate a large amount of lactate without the ability to remove it. This fits with what Lydiard said. He believed that was destructive and that no one would benefit from that kind of work without first putting in several weeks of high mileage aerobic conditioning.

Thanks for info. very useful. Just one question:

If a 4 min 1500m runner was to do an anaerobic resistance session of 400s to improve their lactate tolerance, what sort of pace do you think he should be aiming for given a recovery of say 90secs? Ie what is roughly their anaerobic threshold pace for such a session or is this too specific for each athlete?

Thanks

In contrast to the results of the research Sir Lance provided is this study, which found a significant increase in endurance performance and aerobic capacity from 30 sec. sprints.

Six sessions of sprint interval training increases muscle oxidative potential and cycle endurance capacity in humans.

Burgomaster KA, Hughes SC, Heigenhauser GJ, Bradwell SN, Gibala MJ.

J Appl Physiol. 2005 Jun;98(6):1985-90

Parra et al. (Acta Physiol. Scand 169: 157-165, 2000) showed that 2 wk of daily sprint interval training (SIT) increased citrate synthase (CS) maximal activity but did not change "anaerobic" work capacity, possibly because of chronic fatigue induced by daily training. The effect of fewer SIT sessions on muscle oxidative potential is unknown, and aside from changes in peak oxygen uptake (Vo(2 peak)), no study has examined the effect of SIT on "aerobic" exercise capacity. We tested the hypothesis that six sessions of SIT, performed over 2 wk with 1-2 days rest between sessions to promote recovery, would increase CS maximal activity and endurance capacity during cycling at approximately 80% Vo(2 peak). Eight recreationally active subjects [age = 22 +/- 1 yr; Vo(2 peak) = 45 +/- 3 ml.kg(-1).min(-1) (mean +/- SE)] were studied before and 3 days after SIT. Each training session consisted of four to seven "all-out" 30-s Wingate tests with 4 min of recovery. After SIT, CS maximal activity increased by 38% (5.5 +/- 1.0 vs. 4.0 +/- 0.7 mmol.kg protein(-1).h(-1)) and resting muscle glycogen content increased by 26% (614 +/- 39 vs. 489 +/- 57 mmol/kg dry wt) (both P < 0.05). Most strikingly, cycle endurance capacity increased by 100% after SIT (51 +/- 11 vs. 26 +/- 5 min; P < 0.05), despite no change in Vo(2 peak). The coefficient of variation for the cycle test was 12.0%, and a control group (n = 8) showed no change in performance when tested approximately 2 wk apart without SIT. We conclude that short sprint interval training (approximately 15 min of intense exercise over 2 wk) increased muscle oxidative potential and doubled endurance capacity during intense aerobic cycling in recreationally active individuals.

My review of the research study:

http://www.powerrunning.com/Exercise%20Physiology/The%20Surprising%20Aerobic%20Benefit%20of%20Sprinting.htm

For Sir Lance wrote:

Not quite what you asked for, but relevant to the discussion:

HIGH LACTATE LEVELS AT TRAINING COMPROMISE AEROBIC PERFORMANCE

Simoes, H. G., Campbell, C. S., & Kokubun, E. (1998). High and low lactic acidosis training: Effects upon aerobic and anaerobic performance. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 30(5), Supplement abstract 932.

Two groups of four volunteer runners trained similarly for four weeks.

That's about as irrelevant as a study can get. Two groups of four runners? That doesn't even come close to a scientifically acceptable sampling! LOL

What about this one from Richard_ In JAP no less.

Richard_ wrote:

Six sessions of sprint interval training increases muscle oxidative potential and cycle endurance capacity in humans.

Burgomaster KA, Hughes SC, Heigenhauser GJ, Bradwell SN, Gibala MJ.

J Appl Physiol. 2005 Jun;98(6):1985-90

Eight recreationally active subjects [age = 22 +/- 1 yr; Vo(2 peak) = 45 +/- 3 ml.kg(-1).min(-1) (mean +/- SE)] were studied ...

16 total subjects in that study (8 exercising, 8 controls)

i've never experienced a decline in fitness from too much anaerobic training

No. This is just an excuse that runners at either side of the spectrum (100m and marathon) use to not incorporate things they aren’t good at into their training. The guy who trains for the 400m until age 20 and then focuses the next 10 years on the marathon will END UP faster than the guy who trains for the marathon his whole life because they will have more speed to work with. Likewise, the 100m runner who does a 5 mile tempo run each week will have mor endurance/kick in the last 30m.

Wow, brilliant coaching plan. We must tell the Kenyans and Ethiopians they have been doing it wrong all these years.

been there wrote:

be sensible wrote:

That said, you must be careful. Anaerobic workouts can impact your aerobic ability by altering the ph in your blood, which can mess with your mitochondria. If you do too much VERY high volume anaerobic work without enough recovery you'll burn out.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

Not an idiot. If your not careful the mitochondria can be damaged having a direct impact on the aerobic capacity of the athlete. This is not a permanent problem though (what the OP had asked)

To the OP: You can not change type 1 slow twitch fibers into type 2 fibers.