In midst of global pandemic, NCAA may not allow Christian Noble's 13:37 DII record as it was aided by pacing lights

Anarcho-Bidenist wrote:

holterskolter2 wrote:

"Adults in the room???" How about the adults in the room realize that we have rules. If you don't like the rules, get them changed. Until then, if somebody breaks a record while breaking the rules of that record, it doesn't count.

Jonathan Gault writes in the article: "Ahead of the meet, Milner asked his chief official to check the NCAA and USATF rulebooks to ensure the Light Speed system was okay. They couldn’t find anything that suggested the lights were illegal."

Why did Gault write this?

I dont know why Gault wrote what he wrote. My guess is it's because he's only marginally closer to a journalist than the Brojos.

Here is the relevant section in the ncaa rule book, it took me about 30 seconds to find using Google:

 "Pacing in races by persons not participating in the same race, by lapped competitors or those about to be lapped, by competitors of the opposite gender in the same race, or pacesetting by any kind of technical device that benefits the field."

dc runner 11 wrote:

LetsRun.com wrote:

Let's hope the adults in the room realize the mark needs to stand.

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2021/01/ncaa-may-not-accept-christian-nobles-1337-division-ii-5k-record-due-to-pacing-lights/

What does the global pandemic have to do with it?

I thought Rojo didn’t believe in pandemics

holterskolter2 wrote:

Anarcho-Bidenist wrote:

Jonathan Gault writes in the article: "Ahead of the meet, Milner asked his chief official to check the NCAA and USATF rulebooks to ensure the Light Speed system was okay. They couldn’t find anything that suggested the lights were illegal."

Why did Gault write this?

I dont know why Gault wrote what he wrote. My guess is it's because he's only marginally closer to a journalist than the Brojos.

Here is the relevant section in the ncaa rule book, it took me about 30 seconds to find using Google:

 "Pacing in races by persons not participating in the same race, by lapped competitors or those about to be lapped, by competitors of the opposite gender in the same race, or pacesetting by any kind of technical device that benefits the field."

Law and order

pace the guy wrote:

Maybe he would have run 13:20 without any splits or lights. Maybe he would have run 14 minutes. The lights don't provide an advantage.

Of course they provide an advantage oO.

If it's not an advantage then why would they use them?

You sound like Canova: "Yeah the East Africans are doping but it doesn't help them."

What pace were they set to?

Well...... wrote:

pace the guy wrote:

Maybe he would have run 13:20 without any splits or lights. Maybe he would have run 14 minutes. The lights don't provide an advantage.

Of course they provide an advantage oO.

I guess the question is if they would be an unfair advantage, or against the spirit if the sport, or risky to an individual. That's how they're supposed to try to make these technical rules.

These systems used to be really expensive. They're getting more economical. Honestly, any college that can afford an indoor facility should be able to afford them at this point. That is especially true if they are a school with engineering students. It would make a great senior project for a group of students, I would estimate they could make a system for a few thousand in parts that has more resolution than what is shown in the video, 100 lights around the track rather than just 16.

So it isn't really unfair in that sense.

It doesn't seem like it is a risk to anybody.

It could be argued it is against the spirit of the sport. It is kind of weird to have outside pacing that is electronically controlled. There is a difference between that and a human pacing it, who would be imperfect by nature.

But it could also be argued that humans could pace just as well, they might just make a mistake now and then, but nearly perfect pacing is very possible and reasonable from human pacers.

The only major difference is that most pacers can't go the full distance, while the lights can. But the racer probably isn't watching the lights the last 20% of a race anyway, theyre probably just running by feel at that point.

IAAF already changed the rule, so NCAA might as well follow. But recognizing this as a d2 record is unfair to any kids who have been following the rules.

holterskolter2 wrote:

Anarcho-Bidenist wrote:

Jonathan Gault writes in the article: "Ahead of the meet, Milner asked his chief official to check the NCAA and USATF rulebooks to ensure the Light Speed system was okay. They couldn’t find anything that suggested the lights were illegal."

Why did Gault write this?

I dont know why Gault wrote what he wrote. My guess is it's because he's only marginally closer to a journalist than the Brojos.

Here is the relevant section in the ncaa rule book, it took me about 30 seconds to find using Google:

 "Pacing in races by persons not participating in the same race, by lapped competitors or those about to be lapped, by competitors of the opposite gender in the same race, or pacesetting by any kind of technical device that benefits the field."

Looks to be obviously against NCAA rules indeed.

The question is why NCAA haven't updated their rules when World Athletics have.

America home of the free land of the brave wrote:

holterskolter2 wrote:

 "Pacing in races by persons not participating in the same race, by lapped competitors or those about to be lapped, by competitors of the opposite gender in the same race, or pacesetting by any kind of technical device that benefits the field."

Law and order

Don't let Astro see this. The Brynn Brown 3200 and Jenna Hutchins 5000 (track) records won't stand!!!

NFHS is good with them. The only people who listen to Astro are the Jetsons.

Well...... wrote:

pace the guy wrote:

Maybe he would have run 13:20 without any splits or lights. Maybe he would have run 14 minutes. The lights don't provide an advantage.

Of course they provide an advantage oO.

So how much would pacing lights have helped Daniel Komen?

Daniel Komen 5000 WR (1997)- 12:39.74 (2:32.7, 2:32.7, 2:31.9, 2:31.21, 2:31.21)

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Well...... wrote:

Of course they provide an advantage oO.

So how much would pacing lights have helped Daniel Komen?

Daniel Komen 5000 WR (1997)- 12:39.74 (2:32.7, 2:32.7, 2:31.9, 2:31.21, 2:31.21)

Citing one race doesn’t prove anything. For every perfectly paced wr there’s a thousand poorly paced races where athletes run slower than they could. The lights are undeniably helpful. As another poster mentioned, the real discussion is whether that help is ‘fair’ or not.

Elite runners are able to push 99% tge entire way. These aren't 12 year olds.

Dr Yuengling wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

So how much would pacing lights have helped Daniel Komen?

Daniel Komen 5000 WR (1997)- 12:39.74 (2:32.7, 2:32.7, 2:31.9, 2:31.21, 2:31.21)

Citing one race doesn’t prove anything. For every perfectly paced wr there’s a thousand poorly paced races where athletes run slower than they could. The lights are undeniably helpful. As another poster mentioned, the real discussion is whether that help is ‘fair’ or not.

Komen's pacing absolutely proves elite athletes can hold an even, hard pace without artificial assistance. Here are some other 5000 WRs:

Lauri Lehtinen (1932)- 14:16.9 (2:46.5, 2:54.0, 2:55.5, 2:57.5, 2:43.4)

Taisto Maki (1939)- 14:08.8 (2:46.0, 2:53.0, 2:53.5, 2:52.0, 2:44.3)

Emil Zatopek (1942)- 13:58.2 (2:40.0, 2:47.0, 2:51.5, 2:50.5, 2:49.2)

Vladimir Kuts (1954)- 13:56.6 (2:44.0, 2:52.7, 2:47.2, 2:48.4, 2:44.3)

Chris Chataway (1954)- 13:51.6 (2:41.5, 2:50.1, 2:44.9, 2:53.4, 2:41.7)

Vladimir Kuts (1954)- 13:51.2 (2:38.4, 2:52.4, 2:51.8, 2:45.0, 2:43.6)

Sandor Iharos (1955)- 13:50.8 (2:44.0, 2:49.4, 2:49.8, 2:46.4, 2:41.2)

Vladimir Kuts (1955)- 13:46.8 (2:42.0, 2:48.0, 2:46.0, 2:50.0, 2:40.8)

Sandor Iharos (1955)- 13:40.6 (2:42.0, 2:46.0, 2:48.0, 2:51.0, 2:33.6)

Gordon Pirie (1956)- 13:36.8 (2:36.0, 2:46.0, 2:47.0, 2:48.0, 2:39.8)

Vladimir Kuts (1957)- 13:35.0 (2:37.8, 2:46.5, 2:44.4, 2:44.2, 2:42.1)

Ron Clarke (1965)- 13:34.8 (2:43.8, 2:43.6, 2:44.4, 2:43.1, 2:39.8)

Ron Clarke (1965)- 13:33.6 (2:39.5, 2:41.9, 2:48.0, 2:46.1, 2:38.0)

Ron Clarke (1965)- 13:25.8 (2:39.1, 2:41.3, 2:43.7, 2:44.6, 2:37.0)

Kipchoge Keino (1965)- 13:24.2 (4:16.0, 4:17.8, 4:24.8)

Ron Clarke (1966)- 13:16.6 (2:40.2, 2:36.2, 2:41.0, 2:41.6, 2:37.6)

Lasse Viren (1972)- 13:16.4 (2:36.6, 2:41.9, 2:41.8, 2:42.3, 2:33.7)

Emiel Puttemans (1972)- 13:13.0 (2:33.7, 2:38.3, 2:39.2, 2:44.4, 2:37.4)

Dick Quax (1977)- 13:12.86 (2:39.21, 2:39.21, 2:37.51, 2:42.99, 2:33.94)

Henry Rono (1978)- 13:08.4 (2:42.0, 2:36.0, 2:39.5, 2:37.0, 2:33.9)

Henry Rono (1981)- 13:06.20 (2:38.5, 2:38.5, 2:38.0, 2:38.0, 2:33.2)

David Moorcroft (1982)- 13:00.41 (2:38.0, 2:34.6, 2:37.6, 2:38.5, 2:31.7)

Said Aouita (1985)- 13:00.40 (2:35.14, 2:38.68, 2:37.18, 2:41.16, 2:28.24)

Said Aoiuta (1987)- 12:58.39 (2:35.35, 2:37.68, 2:33.34, 2:39.68, 2:32.34)

Haile Gebrselassie (1994)- 12:56.96 (2:36.6, 2:37.1, 2:37.2, 2:37.4, 2:28.7)

Moses Kiptanui (1995)- 12:55.30 (2:35.2, 2:36.6, 2:35.2, 2:36.2, 2:32.1)

Haile Gebrselassie (1995)- 12:44.39 (2:34.3, 2:34.7, 2:34.0, 2:31.2, 2:30.2)

Haile Gebrselassie (1997)- 12:41.86 (2:34.6, 2:32.0, 2:31.6, 2:35.0, 2:28.7)

Daniel Komen (1997)- 12:39.74 (2:32.7, 2:32.7, 2:31.9, 2:31.21, 2:31.21)

Haile Gebrselassie (1998)- 12:39.36 (2:34.8, 2:31.6, 2:32.9, 2:32.8, 2:27.3)

Kenenisa Bekele (2004)- 12:37.35 (2:33.24, 2:32.23, 2:31.87, 2:30.59, 2:29.4)

I don't believe people that think pacing lights make a difference ever ran competitively in track. Runing fast is talent and training and not from looking at some stupid lights. The pacing lights are just a gimmick, just like they in the ITA back in the '70s.

Good. It's an age-group type of record anyway. NO ONE SHOULD GIVE A SH!T. You are literally celebrating someone that is not effective at top level with a "D2 record."

Only top level competition should matter. No other records should be keep, they are never "on a level playing field" due to so many factors, most notable the one of maturity.

So do pros not get any records counted then now?

Or is it just because the NCAA is a being a turd here?

No one is disputing that WRs are a product of good pacing. The wave light makes good pacing a given. If geb, komen, etc had perfect pacing in every one of their prime races, they would have had even more fast times to show for it. It’s not that nobody can ever run a well paced race without lights, it’s that if you have the lights you will never run a poorly paced race. It completely eliminates pacing as a potential hiccup in any fast race.

I don’t understand old timers weird obsession with insisting that running is some sort of pure pursuit based on nothing but talent and hard work. Technology has an undeniable and provable impact.

God, I wonder how you would have been in the 1950s when we had legalized segregation. That type of logic wouldn't work so well.

But i see what you are saying. f you want to disallow the record because it's against NCAA rules, then fine. Who cares. We all know he's the fastest. But if they disallow it for NCAA qualifying purposes, then I have a real problem. The qualifying manual says you can do it at USATF open meets and that's what this was.

A runner will obviously be less likely to get Covid-19 if they are running behing a light than a heavy breathing pacer

That's a fair criticism. I was his editor on this piece and told him after I read it that I thought his backstory didn't reallly add anything to it but I'd include it as I didn't want to spend an hour editing it and also knew he spent a lot of time talking to people to get the anecdotes. I almost put a line after that sentence read, "But they were wrong."

That's how I would have written it. Jonathan likes longer form journalism where the facts eventually come out. He eventually put in the rule showing those people were incorrect. Of course the rules are contradictory as they also clearly state you can qualify in USATF open meets.

Thank God there are sane ppl in the track community! I am so sick of these "purist". The sport of track and field cant grow in the U.S because some would rather stay in the Roger Bannister era instead of letting the sport evolve! Do they still shoot a basketball in a peach basket? Is football still played with leather helmets? Let the sport evolve already smh.