Malmo: Your take on 20 mile long runs high school runners?

Malmo didn't do 8.5 mile runs everyday, and he sure as hell didn't run more than 20 miles at a time.(maybe ONCE)

You're running 20 on Sunday, but picking your nose the other 6 days of the week (paraphrasing malmo). He would definitely want to see more doubles during the week, and less emphasis on the mileage on a single day.

Your memory is wrong. I can only remember doing one 20 miler in high school, and I may have run one or two more. However, I did many in the 14 to 17 mile range.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I strongly recommend high mileage? I've never recommended any mileage -- high, low or in-between. The only thing I've ever said is to run mileage that appropriate to the event that you are training for, and to run long runs that are proportional to your overall weekly mileage.

To answer your question, I do not think that high school runners should be running 20 mile runs, at least not on a regular basis. They should be focused on the basics, living like a clock, and racing as often as possible.

malmo wrote:

They should be focused on the basics, living like a clock, and racing as often as possible.

I'm giving you a chance to clear up this statement

I'm obviously not Malmo, but that is a terrible way to run 70mpw IMO. Most high school kids shouldn't run longer than about 15 mile long runs, and 12-13 mile long runs are fine for most.

Maybe if you want to be the next Mitch Kingery. Ever hear of Mitch in college much or after?

A Wanna Be wrote:

Is this a good way to run 70 mpw?

Sunday 20

Monday 8

Tuesday 8

Wed 4,4

Thurs 10

Fri 8

Sat 8

No, it's stupid.

20 is much too long for high schoolers. I know some high school runners who successfully did big miles and improved drastically, but they kept their long runs under control. I think the long run is one area that is very easy to go overboard and hurt yourself on. I have a theory that it becomes much easier to do damage to your body once you get close to 20 miles because your muscles are just so tired.

I'm not malmo, but on his "manifesto" here:

http://pih.bc.ca/malmosmanifesto.html

He has these "rules" for training:

1. Run twice a day, as many days as you can. Hopefully five, six or seven days a week.

2. Run more. How much? I dunno. You figure it out, but find out for yourself.

3. Run it faster.

4. Love running and LOVE racing.

5. Stay focused.

6. Set goals and don't be afraid to fail.

7. Listen to your body and don't be afraid to rest.

8. Compete WITH your comrades in sweat - never AGAINST them.

9. Smile a lot.

I think they are great suggestions. You can't tell a high school runner "you must run X miles per week to win a state title." How the hell do you know how much someone else needs to run? The ONLY way is to find out for yourself.

I am of the persuasion that the long run is important, but (for those NOT training for the marathon) should be capped at a maximum of about two hours, less for younger runners. As many posters have mentioned, the most a high schooler really needs to do is 15 every once in a while. 13 is a good distance, because at a decent pace, it works out to just about an hour and a half. A good ROUGH GUIDE to the length of your long run is "1.5x the daily average of your mileage in singles"

Do you need to run 70 in HS to compete at 5km and 10km? How about sticking with 50-60. Consistent mileage over many months is better than a few weeks at 70 and then you get injured.

the higher the mileage the better. as long as you stay injury free and can do it consistantly. a good rule is keep your lond run at 20% to 25% of your weekly mileage. i would also say you do not need to go over 2hrs on any run. im not against doubling but if you can handle it in singles you will get more fitness for singles. when i started 70 mile weeks i had to double 3 times a week. now i just ran 117 in singles 3 years later. of course im not doing that every week. i stay around 100-105. for a high schooler just stay consistant and have fun with your running. good luck man!

25% is too high, 20% or under is better especially for a younger runner with a focus well below the marathon distance.

This whole do it all in singles fad is a bunch of BS. Answer me this MR. 117 in singles "if you are running a late day race, do you do a shakeout run in the am?" If the answer is yes, then why don't you do one everyday?

By running twice a day you can do higher volume, can even run it faster if you want although in my book it is ok to have easy running as part of your training and still get aerobic benefits from it. Your body will learn to recover faster, because it has to. You can use the first workout of the day as a shakeout to loosen up for the harder pm session or to loosen up from the previous days harder session or race. Or if you are a late day runner, use the 2nd session to loosen up and recover from the first session.

Not being a coffee drinker I always found that morning run as the best way to start the day. Doing two a days allowed me to do what I loved twice a day which is the best reason of all.

Stoned wrote:

malmo wrote:

They should be focused on the basics, living like a clock, and racing as often as possible.

I'm giving you a chance to clear up this statement

I'm not malmo, but I think this is what he meant:

You know all those kids that say oh geez, I ran 3:57 off of no speed work, and you don't understand what they mean? Its because they race themselves into shape. They don't do a ton of hard track intervals, they run a bunch of races instead.

Malmo, I'm real sorry if this isn't what you meant.

A Wanna Be wrote:

I know that your magneto loop was 8.5 miles. And you did that almost daily. 5:25 pace was hard/fast. That would be faster than race pace for me.

It is very important to remember that 8.5 miles at 5:25 pace is roughly 46 minutes. So instead of running 8.5 miles at your "hard" pace. I would suggest running 45 minutes at "hard" pace to better simulate that particular run. If your hard pace is more like 6:10, 8.5 miles would take you 52:25. It's all relative, keep that in mind.

Secondly, I have to echo everyone else's sentiments that 70 mpw is way to much for running 5Ks in HS. Don't worry about training for 10Ks now, focus on the 3200 and 5K.

"Living like a clock" means keep your back to the wall, move only your arms, say nothing when people call them "hands" and be dependable.

Or, more likely, it means keep to a schedule, but that's my best guess.

malmo, when you were young you were doing sessions such as 8x400 at mile pace yes? Hard, but doable training for all young aspiring distance runners. The sort of training that sets a young guy up for good race results.

The mileage is something you do in between the fast stuff.

You say long runs are over rated, I say mileage is over rated, important yes, but over rated I'm sure.

I once (many years ago) did a very informal and unscientific review of guys who were major high school studs AND (this is the tricky part) kept getting better after high school. I looked at the high school training of guys like Liquori, Virgin, Pre, (I don't include Ryun because he's the exception to practically everything) etc. and a pattern emerged.

The pattern was essentially no fewer than 50/week and no more than 70/week, with a lot of variety of paces and distances. Long runs weren't more than 15. Virgin has said that his senior year (in which he never ran a 2M OVER 9:00) he only had three workouts: 10 x 400, fartlek on a golf course, and a ten-mile run and he just rotated through them each day. His explanation? "You need all three, speed, strength and endurance, so I just kept repeating that."

If there is a "key" for high school runners, I think that's it. No extreme in any direction and a lot of variety.

"There is no substitute for daily preparation." Advice I got on entering College. The professor giving the course on how to study for college said the advice could be applied to other parts of your life too. Like sports. He used an alarm clock ringing every 10 minutes to accentuate the point. ("Live like a clock, essentially.) Stuck with me ever since, even though the rest of the course didn't. As true today as it was then. Heed thee advice well, youngsters.

Here's my general guide for committed HS runners in their base seasons:

1. Average 10-25% more mileage than you did the previous year, never increasing more than about 12-15 mpw in a year (as an average).

2. Have a few pockets where you go 2-3 days to 5-7 days of increased mileage, followed by a few easy days.

3. Run 1-3 tempo runs per week over the summer and winters (and at least one per week during your competitive seasons). Run by FEEL: the nice sweet spot where you're legs aren't getting any heavier. Vary the types of tempo runs you do (sometimes 20-25 minutes at the faster end, sometimes 40-60 minutes at the slower end).

4. Long run should usually be about 20% of your weekly mileage, but an occassional run of 25% 2-3 times over the summer or the winter is fine.

5. Run on soft surfaces whenever possible.

6. Run on lots of hills.

7. Do strides 2-3 x per week. Try 1-2 on flat ground (your standard 6-8 x 100m at 3k to 800 race pace) and maybe once per week up a hill. Full recovery.

8. Do lots of crunches and ab work.