people dont understand paul tergats GREATNESS !!!

yes, tergat's great(i think he's slightly better than geb, but that is highly debateable), but please get your facts straight.

1. tergat has used pacemakers, most notably in his wr marathon, where the pacemaker wound up finishing just a second or two behind him. his teammates also helped set up those xc wins for him by burning out the competition.

2. there's this guy by the name of bekele who has also dominated cross with consecutive wins, and has managed to win both the 4k and 12k races.

3. most world records have only been beaten by a small group of people . . . particularly when those records are still relatively new. in 100 years, i'm sure many more people will have surpassed his records.

mnbvcxz wrote:

yes, tergat's great(i think he's slightly better than geb, but that is highly debateable)....

its not highly debatable. its not debatable at all. there's no better way to compare two runners than a head to head matchup in the olympics while both are in their prime (geb wins in atlanta, paul second). there's no better way to augment this than a rematch 4 years later (geb wins in sydney, paul second). then there's the 1999 10k championship (geb wins, paul second). and the 1997 championship (you get the point). i should also mention the 1995 championship (geb first, tergat 3rd), and the 1993 championship, where geb won the 10k and was second in the 5k (paul did not compete). i can't imagine it being much more clear than that geb is better than tergat.

oh yeah, and geb has better PRs at every distance except the marathon.

and geb cant even get within a minute of tergats record, ON THE EXACT SAME BERLIN COURSE WITH BETTER WEATHER CONDITIONS AND PACERS.

this says it all. tergat owns distance.

All that proves is that he owns marathon. Geb was slightly better at all other distances head to head.

Agreed. It's sad to hear that Tergat has been hinting at retiring. He will be greatly missed. Geb has a few more marathons in him, including Fukuoka in December and London in the spring. The right conditions and pacing for either of those could lead to a new WR.

Geb's range is truly unbelievable, and certainly much better than Tergat's. His prs are faster at every distance from 1500 on up except for the marathon, in which geb was running alone into strong winds while Tergat had better conditions and a pacemaker that pushed him to the last step. The point is, yes Tergat is one of the best of all time, certainly top 5, but Geb is THE greatest of all time.

It is debatable when you consider (1) Tergat's record in the marathon and (2) Geb's relatively poor record in cross. The results their head-to-head matchups in the 10K only show that Geb was a superior 10K runner, not the better of the two across the whole discipline. Aside from that, I specifically said "I think" which means it's my own #$^&$*# opinion and whether I base it on the facts or pull it out of my a$$, I'm not changing it.

I appreciate and respect your opinion. Personally I believe Tergat to be the 2nd greatest distance runner of all time (although Bekele will in time eclipse both he and Geb).

To address your points, I concede that Geb gives up a lot in cross country - this is quite obvious. Were I to believe that cross-country constituted half the sport of distance running, or even some appreciable fraction, this fact may begin to undermine Geb's utter personal domination of Tergat on the track. However, cross even in a non-championship year is not that important, I would venture even to Tergat (or Bekele) himself. It is vastly overshadowed by the subsequent track seasons, at least in my perception. Certainly I could be wrong.

To your point that Geb's 10k dominance only shows that he was a superior 10k runner, I question how this fact could be anything but the single most important determinant in measuring their careers. It is quite clear that the 10k was the focal point in the careers of both, peaking between the years of 1995 and 2000. They both shattered the world record and were the clear #1 and #2 during this period. Nothing in either of their careers, even the half-marathon, marathon, and 5k records each of them held, approach the worth of their 10k ability.

Regarding Tergat's superior record in the marathon, I dispute that it is so clearly in Tergat's favor. I don't recall the exact specifics but as I recall, both of them have had inconsistent success. A number of decent performances and a couple of standouts. Tergat has one standout better than any of Geb's. But one race does not make a career, and in fact to point to Tergat's WR marathon as the highlight of his career is, I believe, demeaning to everything else he has accomplished.

the430miler wrote:

and geb cant even get within a minute of tergats record, ON THE EXACT SAME BERLIN COURSE WITH BETTER WEATHER CONDITIONS AND PACERS.

this says it all. tergat owns distance.

4.30

Paul will be in the Kenyan team in Beijing barring any injuries. He still has some fire in him at 36. He'll be 38 then and probably retire at 40.

i hope by retire you mean slowly decrease in his ammount of elite races; because he will never "retire" from the sport of running.

"But one race does not make a career, and in fact to point to Tergat's WR marathon as the highlight of his career is, I believe, demeaning to everything else he has accomplished."

please elaborate on this.

if you are indeed saying that his past records that were BEARLY broken are overlooked, therefore making him underrated compared to geb who bearly broke them while having better pacemaking factors; than yes, we are on the same page.

correct me if im wrong, but tergat didnt even have 1 pacemaker for his wr marathon; he WAS i pacemaker for i believe sammy kipketer?

the430miler wrote:

tergat didnt even have 1 pacemaker for his wr marathon; he WAS i pacemaker for i believe sammy kipketer?

who *is* this fool, and where did he come from?

430 miler, you're incredibly wrong. it was the same course but Geb had no one with him after the half while Tergat had Sammy Korir the whole entire way. ALso Geb had to deal with bad winds while Tergat had cool, relatively low wind conditions, and could draft a little off of Korir.

And for the other tool who said Tergat had pacemakers in the world cross - also untrue, he was always battling it out with Koech or Ivuti to the finish, not all the races were set up for him any more they were set up for Bekele.

the430miler wrote:

i hope by retire you mean slowly decrease in his ammount of elite races; because he will never "retire" from the sport of running.

Retire from racing is what was meant. He's 37 years old. Can't keep running at a world elite level forever.

hmmm..well, thats not particularly the debate at hand.

tergat is undisputably the best xc runner of all time.

but we're debate the best all time distance runner, between tergat, geb, and i guess bekele will be an option as well.

all in all, my vote is still tergat, because...

1. he holds the wr in the marathon. by a MINUTE.

2. the wr that he hold is THE ultimate distance. the marathon shows all strength of running, especially endurance. it is the upmost respected and hardest event, worldwide.

3. all of the other times/records he has held in other distances; not saying that bekele hasnt, because he currently does. but still.... paul tergat also hold the record for MOST w/r's broken. he has broken his own records and different distances numerous times.

the430miler wrote:

2. the wr that he hold is THE ultimate distance. the marathon shows all strength of running, especially endurance. it is the upmost respected and hardest event, worldwide.

didn't you assert just the other day, in a different thread, the exact same 'ultimate distance...all the stregnths of running' crap about the mile?

yes. the mile shows ultimate ability for all people, even middle distance guys like half-milers (800).

the marathon is the ultimate race in the long distance category.

[quote]the430miler wrote:

tergat is undisputably the best xc runner of all time.

quote]

I'd like to dispute this. Bekele, bro.

How can you say this is "UNdisputable" (sic)?

okay wow, a few corrections i believe are needed.

tergat is undisputably the second best xc runner of all time. (bekele is undisputably the best) although tergat is obviously better than haile.

now between tergat, haile, and bekele. obviously bekele can't really be considered yet cuz he's still early in his career. but he's the best xc guy ever and he's got the 5k and 10k records over geb and tergat. although at the same time so far in his career his right to be considered as the greatest has been greatly hurt i think by the fact that he loses races on the track much more often than at least haile, (i don't really know tergat's win record). but i'd say he still has a good chance of eclpising the careers of both tergat and haile when all is said and done, only time will tell.

1. tergat holds the WR by a minute over haile, i assume thats what you meant since he's actually the fastest marathoner ever by only a second. but then again haile is obviously still getting used to the marathon and i'd say has a good chance of beating tergats record in the next few years.

2. you can't just say the marathon is the ultimate distance so tergat wins. because someone else can just as easily say any other distance that those two have run is the ultimate distance and so haile wins. and haile is better and EVERY other distance. and i doubt tergat has another WR marathon in him, haile still has a shot at it. if he gets it that'll mean that haile completely owns tergat on the track and roads at all distances while tergat just has xc which is not as big in the professional running world.

3. and finally, no way tergat has more world records than haile. haile i think now has broken right around 20 world records. i'm pretty sure tergat is no where near that.

geb wins