Is a PB in secondary event always significant for the main event ?

I don't know what in the world you're talking about. Just don't puke on my shoes.

That's a very good point -- what form did the athlete have an at what point of the season did the athlete set that mark. Steve Scott ran 13:52 for 5k the same year he ran 3:47 for the mile -- but he was still running 90+mpw in May when he ran the 5k, and was in peak form during July for the Oslo Mile.

Renato Canova wrote:

HENRY MARSH, the same year that he ran 8:09.17 on steeple (1985), ran 3000 in 7:56.2 : of course, no relation. Also his PB in 5000 (13:45.2 in '84) is something wrong if you think about 8:09 in steeple.

Two things: Marsh was an efficient hurdler, which allowed the difference in steeple and flat races to be so small, AND he probably didn't get a chance to run the other events very much seeing as he was a steeple specialist.

Trackhead! You've been disbanned! I also recently had a ban lifted. Congrats. Of course, it's just a matter of time until we're banned again.

I find it interesting that here in the States we like to look at a lot of our runners and say "so and so doesn't have an 800 or 400 time that indicates they can succeed at a given distance." This comes up pretty often with regard to the mile and 5000.

Seeing all these examples helps put things into perspective.

I believe in that to a certain extent. I like looking at stamina ratios -- If you've got a fairly well developed aerobic capacity then you can probably run a 3:59 mile off of 1:51 800m speed. If you've got a highly developed aerobic capacity, then you could probably run sub4 off of 1:54 speed.

When you say that Marsh didn't have many chances of running 3000 flat, you are confirming what I want to demonstrate. In the current athletics, how many times a top runner can have the chance of competing in an event different from his main ? This is the most important reason because PB in secondary event are not significant : because don't represent the real value of an athlete !

For example, if you are a middle distance runner that began his activity in a group of marathon runners, you can have during your first years PB very good in long races, not the same in short distances (may be, 20 years old, 29:00 in 10k, 14:00 in 5k, 3:55 in 1500m because you ran this event only once at the beginning of the season, no PB in 800m), then you move on shorter distances, and when you are 25 your best are yet 29:00 and 14:00 because you never ran again these events, but 3:40 and 1:48. So, what is your real attitude ?

An example : ANDRE BUCHER (winner of WCh 2001 in 800m, PB 1:42.55, in 1993 ran long cross and steeple, with 1:56.40 when was 17. When was 19, he ran already 1:45.71, but also 30:40.5 in 10k and 9:09.73 in steeple.

But, in 2001, I saw him running 10k on track in St. Moritz (1800m of altitude) in 30:08 in training, the day after running 3 times 200m in 21.5/21.7 with 10 min recovery.

So, someone can know exactly what is the potential of Bucher in 1500/3000/5000/10000m when he is in top shape ?

Another example : last year, 10 days before Berlin meeting, Wilfred Bungei ran 400m in Davos (hand timing) in 45.07. His official PB is 47.8. So, if you give some importance to his official PB, of course can only have wrong opinions about his value.

What's up with Lebid, ran World Indoors 2 races, then flew to Italy for cross at Sunday (2nd behind Kiprop) and now decides to not run World Cross to prepare for Athens.

Let's be realistic he got no chance to take a medal in the Olympics, he needs to be in 12.50 shape. Cross is his best event....he should focus on that, especially since the course in Brussels really suits him.

About Sergey, nor me neither his manager Gianni Demadonna agreed his choice of competing in indoor skipping cross. His idea was to work during winter for improving his speed, but personally I don't think that is possible to work for speed when is very cold (Sergey preferred to stay home for long time in Ukraine), as muscles are not able to recover lactic training in short time.

However, the fact that Sergey is stubborn is his limit, but his strenght too.

His choice was of sure a mistake. I hope that, from this mistake, Sergey can take informations for better following the advices that coach and manager can give him.

People see what they want to see. Damn the facts. The cloud over Lagat's veracity will remain with many no matter what the rationalizations in his favor are. If he's telling the truth (which I believe he is) then this whole episode is a cruel reminder that once labeled as a cheat, even erroneously, your character remains toast with far too many. It's not the first time bad things happened to good people in our sport, however, let's hope it's the last.

Renato - I am amazed to see you asking a question as I thought you knew everything!!!

I remember a few years ago a top miler, I think it was Eamon Coghlan (someone of that generation anyway) moaning that he could never get into a top 800m as his best time was only about 1:48. He reckoned he could have run 1:45-6 in the right race, but the promoters always wanted him in the 1500/mile. I'm sure this sort of scenario happens quite often, and more so these days with the format of the Golden League.

I wonder if Kipeketer and EIG had both run 800/1500m regularly instead of sticking to the one event, perhaps theis PB wouldn't be quite so fast. Or perhaps if Coe and Cram had only concentrated on one event they may have gone even better than 1:41 and 3:29?

I wonder if Bekele ever will run the 1500/mile....

He got more speed than EL G and more endurance than EL G....what gives? 3.25?

Borza has a 1500 PR of 3.43 from last year.

Bekele has a good sprint at the end of a 10k, but not the pace to beat El Gerrouj's times over 1500/mile or even get close.

Renato, I find your posts very much of interest and with knowledge. Pleae to continue all your writing.

Bazza, I'm not asking anything, but my post is for demonstrating to all people looking at ALL PB of an athlete for going to some conclusion that this procedure is not correct NOW (as you very well explain) at the same way of the past.

20 or more years ago, there were athletes running two or three events with the same frequency and the same interest. Coe and Ovett were two clear examples of these behavior : both won Olympic Games in their SECOND event !

But now this behavior is no more possible.

The main reason is the big number of competitions strictly connected one another, that don't permit to have space for running a second event. Think of IAAF ranking, for example : you need to compete the most part of the season in the same event, for going to the GP Final. Every athlete has a value as "specialist" of a specific event, and often cannot find a place for running another distance, ALSO IF REFUSES APPEARANCE !

Personally, I think that this situation is not the best, technically speaking. But in any case this is the today's athletics, and we have to manage this situation in the best possible way.

So, many times I see in my athletes some potentiality that they cannot put in evidence in official competitions, and that are very far from what some people (not knowing the reality AT THE MOMENT) can think. For example, if you think that Nicholas Kemboi in Bruxelles ran 13:17 + 13:13, with the last 3000 in 7:49 (and his PB is 7:54 !), you can understand that one thing is the POSSIBILITY, another thing the OFFICIAL PB.

I'm sure that who well knows the history of athletics is able to give a correct mean to the PB of the athletes.

But, in this site, there are many runners that don't have experience, and look at the official results without interpreting them. Our explanations are for these people.

"or even get close"?

Bekele clearly got more speed than Geb, who did 3.31 (without specific training!?).....so I think Kenny is capable of a faster time.

I hope Kenny will run a 1500 this year to prove you wrong :>

3.26 is "only" 55/400 pace, bekele can go sub48/400 for sure.

Renato - I hope you didn't mind me a having a little joke at your expense? Many people on here think of you as the font of all human knowledge!!!

It is strange that we seem to think that every distance runner should have a list of super-fast times at all distances. Perhaps we get a bit too concerned about about the flat 400m speed of top marathon runners? After all, we don't expect shot putters to be world class hammer throwers.

P.S. I always enjoy your posts.

Renato,

Do you think that all runners should "bracket" their event, meaning race both above and below it? I know the current GL system is counter productive to it, but I find it incredibly valuable in improving performance. Like Coe racing 400m and 3000m, or Shaheen racing 1500m and 5000m. My thinking tells me that this is why Ngeny beat el Guerrouj in Sydney. Ngeny regularly raced between 800m and 3000m, whereas el Guerrouj raced almost exculsively 1500m/mile, with occasional 2000m and 3000m races, but no races shorter than 1500m since 1995! Ngeny had similar ability (3:43 mile), but had improved his ability at shorter distances, including his 1000m WR (2:11.96). I believe because the pace was slow enough from WR pace, that Ngeny was able to use his 800/1000m ability to kick past el Guerrouj in the last 60m. Perhaps if el Guerrouj raced shorter than 1500m it would be a different story.

3.30.01