I have known people who have done something like this so it is not surprising. The program is meeting the needs of consumers.
Makes Galloway look a little better doesn't it!
I have not seen anything where the folks think that you can run elite times on such a program.
I've struggled with this since I read it a few days ago. What we don't know from the article is what kind of training these folks had done prior to their other marathons. The prescribed program is fairly intense even though it is only 3 days a week, they are all either long or hard runs. If the runners were just slogging through 5 or 6 a day prior to their previous marathons, then such improvements are not all that surprising.
My hyposthesis is that if these same people trained 6-7 days per week for their next marathon including a long run and 2 quality days (even if a little less intense than the other program), they would PR again.
This is a favourite topic of mine.
IMHO, the shorter the race distance, the more sessions per week one should do. Sprinters need 12 sessions a week. Marathoners need the opposite.
Oh I know, the best Marathoners do 12 sessions a week etc etc. I believe the future of Marathon training will speak to fewer sessions, more "Marathon" sessions, and better recovery between these sesions.
Many of the very best have done minimal days inbetween the big / hard days. Example: Steve Jones with his regular 40min days.
I use a hypothetical scenario: 60MPW: 12x5, 6x10 or 3x20. Which is best for the Marathon? I know...it's hypothetical. But it hopefully illustrates a concept. The concept that Marathoners can benefit with REGULAR Marathon type sessions, and appropriate recovery between those sessions.
Sprinters need 12 sessions a week.
Why do sprinters need to do more ? Why not 3 sessions a week for sprinters too ? And why does the same argument not apply to marathoners ? I'd argue that it's a motor learning issue (related to running economy and utilisation), and that it does apply to marathoners.
Many of the very best have done minimal days inbetween the big / hard days.
Nearly every succesful marathoner did high mileage. And it's nearly impossible to do that without running frequently. A day of easy running is still a day of running.
I use a hypothetical scenario: 60MPW: 12x5, 6x10 or 3x20. Which is best for the Marathon?
All of the above, and none of the above. You can blend all approaches, and get the benefits of all of them, e.g. 1x20 + 1x12 + 1x8 + 5x4. This approach is near the top of the scale in both long training runs and frequency. You get one "true" long run, and an additional run that's somewhat long (~90+ minutes -- if you're training faster than 7:30/mile, you should be doing more than 60mpw for marathon!). A 4 mile run is very short, but one of those short runs could be a tempo run, and the others could have strides thrown in -- good bang for the buck in terms of efficiency.
I saw this article in the newest Runners World too and was curious about it. Interesting discussion, but I think you gotta do a little more than just 3 days a week...
Hey elflord.
IMHO, H being humble.... :)
Sprinters must sprint. When they can no longer sprint (after no very much running!) it's time for a break. How long a break after 5x40m starts for example? A few hours.
Marathoners, in the future, will visit the special zone above 90min more often, and leave the "5 Miles in the morning in order to boost my weekly mileage" type runs behind. They will do Marathon worthy sessions. How long a break after 6x5km?
Obviously, successful Marathoners do "hi mileage", but I honestly believe we get too caught up in weekly quotas, and that 100 is magic. I beleive 2:03 runners in the future will run 80 ish miles a week. The miles will be distributed in accordance with the above principles.
Cheers
Skuj
I'm gonna try this- because I have to.
I am getting too old to run every day and I need the rest/recovery time. I think less frequent runs of a higher quality will benefit me most. And if it worked for Steve Jones then that's good enough for me.
It is possible that you are closer to the truth than you think. 4 x 20 would be an interesting experiment for 10-12 weeks as base training.
i had read of frank horwills program, and his recommendation of running only 30-35 minutes between hard sessions, because the muscles need to repair after working hard and it is not good to start a marathon with muscle damage, horwill is known for his 5 pace theory, so a runner training for a marathon, would use marathon pace, half marathon pace, 10k pace, 5k pace, 3k pace and a duration run, time you hope to finish in, so someone hoping to run under 2 hours on 3 running days a week would have to run fast, so this might be what a schedule looks like.
day 1. marathon pace 1st cycle run 3x5k in 14:00 minutes or 67.5 per quarter mile. quarter mile recovery.
day 2 cross train 1-2 hours, bike, rowing machine, stairstepper, swim basisically stay active.
day 3. half marathon pace, 6x 10 minutes try for about 9 laps at 65 pace. 200 recovery
day 4. cross train.
day 5. 10k pace try for 3x2 miles in 816, 200 recovery or 62 pace.
day 6. cross train
day 7. cross train or relax
end of week 1, 37 hard running miles,
week 2 .
day 1. 5
week 2
day 1 5k pace 4 x 1 in 4 minutes, 200 recovery or 60 second pace.
day 2. cross train
day 3. 3k pace 8 x half in 156, or 58 pace
day 4. cross train
day 5. duration run 2 hour run if course is hilly try to run on a hilly course.
day 6 cross train.
day 7 cross train.
note horwill recommends running 2-3 times the marathon distance for best results although i guess cross training can be translated to running miles if aerobic and enough running is done for muscle memory.
note on day 1 of first week, marathon pace start with 3x5k in 14 minutes and work up to 6x5k in 14 minues, quarter mile recovery.
i meant to say horwill advises runners training for the marathon 2 run 2-3 times the marathon distance a week, from a minimum of 52 to about 80.
how does this make Gallowalking look better?
better than adam wrote:
but I think you gotta do a little more than just 3 days a week...
why do you think that?
i had read in alberto salazars book about a runner named john keston who is close to 70 years old and runs under 3 hours for the marathon, according to the write up on keston he runs 15-20 miles and incorporates a few miles at a good pace and then he just walks 6 miles for the 2 days after a run, so only running 2-3 times a week he does very well for his age, keston got the idea to run only once every 3 days whens his son told him weightlifters need 2 days of rest after working out to improve.
This is a great discussion! I'm very pleased that it is staying polite. Typically, when you hear subjects like this, the authors get jumped on. It's good to think outside the boxes that tradition have presented us. This kind of creative thinking is how we move forward.
Another related thought: Weekly long run. Why weekly? Because it's just tooooo convenient right? Why not very long every 10 days (35-40k?) and moderately long 5 days later, every 10 days. (28-32k?) Would that not be a better way to distribute key runs?
Cheers
Skuj
perseus wrote:
how does this make Gallowalking look better?
If you actually look at the schedules there are some tough aspects. Distance runs of greater than 25 miles (albeit with walk breaks).
13x1 mile repeats at MP. This is not an easy workout, it is a solid workout.
In defense of the 3 day plan, the program does "allow" for an additional 2 days of easy running or cross training. So one could run 5 days per week.
no, the FIRST program makes a point about only allowing 3 days of running allowed - the other 2 days are for x-training, not running
the participants in the study have to agree to only run 3 times a week. if you want to take part in this year's you can only run 2 road races, which are specified, during the training program leading up to the Kiawah marathon
sun, 24 miles easy pace
mon, zilch
tue, long intervals, 1000m to 3000m, lotsa recovery
wed, zilch
thu, 16 miles incorporating tempo if desired
fri, zilch
sat, short intervals, 200m to 800m, short recovery
quiz, I did 2:10 with this in early 80s, who am I?