Atleast I've got one thing figured out.
I can run in the 5:35-5:50 range quite comfortably or within myself during a race. This is the pace I find myself naturally setting into and it also happens to be my 10K to half-marathon pace.
Is the 5:35 my aerobic or anaerobic threshold?
How should I structure my training in order to bring this down, say to 5:05-5:20?
Fast, anaerobic intervals? Long, sustained tempos?
daniels who wrote:
Atleast I've got one thing figured out.
I can run in the 5:35-5:50 range quite comfortably or within myself during a race. This is the pace I find myself naturally setting into and it also happens to be my 10K to half-marathon pace.
Is the 5:35 my aerobic or anaerobic threshold?
How should I structure my training in order to bring this down, say to 5:05-5:20?
Fast, anaerobic intervals? Long, sustained tempos?
If 5:35 is your 10k pace, it is neither your aerobic or anaerobic(more commonly known as lactate) threshold. Add about 10-15 seconds to your 10k pace to find your lactate threshold. Add another 15-25 seconds to get your aerobic threshold.
Now how do you lower these? You run a lot of mileage, some fast intervals, do long tempos (8-10miles) at aerobic threshold, short tempos (4-5) at lactate threshold, and everything else that makes up a training plan. Lowering your thresholds takes all elements of training. Your fast stuff makes you more efficient. Your long stuff raises your endurance etc. There is a place called Nirvana in the middle of all this. Choose the middle path.
doo doo wrote:
do long tempos (8-10miles) at aerobic threshold
Runs at aerobic threshold is called "steady" and these are just a little bit faster than recovery runs and could be done daily and also could be very long runs.
Depends how you look at it. I think of aerobic threshold and steady as different things. Nothing is set in stone. I defined my aerobic threshold as did you, they are different things to both of us.
Does anyone do a long tempo and a short tempo every week during base phase?
Some (Daniels, Conova) define anaerobic threshold/lactate threshold as the pace you can only manage for a one hour effort/race while in full training, while aerobic threshold is generally considered to be about marathon pace.
As stated, both paces serve their purposes in training, as well as faster and slower paces and those paces in between.
Aerobic threshold is what it is, and it´s the same personal intensity level for me and you. There´s no other way to look at it.
So if a person's goal 5k race pace is 5:40 and their current "regular" training run pace is 7:25-7:45, what would their aerobic threshold pace be? Would that be the pace which helps them lower their threshold and lead to faster times?
I am not familiar with mile times because I use kilometers, but aerobic threshold heartbeat is about 40-50 below max HR.
If you are experienced runner then use 40 below MHR value. If you don´t know your MHR, then use this formula: 180-age. Again, if you are experienced runner add 5 beats, or if beginner then subtract 5 beats.
Aerobic threshold is best intensity for basic endurance training, and ideal for slow twitch muscle fibers. Long runs at or near aerobic threshold are very effective to build endurance. If you go faster than this you are using intermediate fibers also and that´s the anaerobic threshold intensity. To lower anaerobic threshold you need to train near that intensity and some VO2max work, but before that it´s important to focus on aerobic threshold.
You are not listening. I am saying it is how you define it. We are talking about two different paces and using the same word to describe them. I am not arguing that your pace isnt useful in training. Please use reading comprehension so that you dont come across as a total asshole in the future
For practical purposes, your thresholds can be estimated with paces, e.g. aerobic threshold is marathon pace, and lactate threshold is 10 mile pace, or 1 hour pace. In your case, it may be more like 5:45 and 6:10.
These are not definitions of the thresholds, but simply practical estimations of the related effort. You do not need better estimates, or a definition, unless you are a scientist.
To improve these thresholds, you should first read the monster locked thread about effective ways to improve lactate threshold. No one will say anything important in this thread that hasn't been said there.
Otherwise, to improve your aerobic threshold, train for a marathon.
To improve your lactate threshold include training to improve stamina (e.g. steady state runs, tempo runs, tempo intervals, cruise intervals, progressive tempo, ...).
Think about comprehensive and holistic training to improve your important race times, rather than piece-meal tweaking some physiological thresholds.
doo doo wrote:
Depends how you look at it. I think of aerobic threshold and steady as different things. Nothing is set in stone. I defined my aerobic threshold as did you, they are different things to both of us.
Right. These so called 'thresholds' aren't really thresholds at all, but appoxiamate intesities.
Usually exercise physiologists refer to approximate marathon pace as 'aerobic threshold' and appoximate half marathon pace, or one hour race pace as 'anaerobic threshold' or 'lactate threshold'
The term anaerobic threshold is misleading though, because we don't 'go anaerobic' in a short fast race of constant pace, rather the opposite, we actually use less and less anaerobic pathways and more aerobic pathways as the race progresses.
So, to avoid confusion, the term 'lacate threshold' was introduced, as being appoximately the pace where we produce and use lactate at about the same rate. But this is also slightly misleading, because the further you run, the less glycogen you have available, and thus, the less lactate can be produced from the remaining glycogen.
It is important to point out that lactate is a product of carbohydrate metabolism, and the reaction which produces lactate, provides both anaerobic and aerobic fuel.
doo doo wrote:
Your fast stuff makes you more efficient. Your long stuff raises your endurance etc. There is a place called Nirvana in the middle of all this. Choose the middle path.
True also. Although we now have to define the difference between speed and endurance and what is in the middle.
So, it is probably also true to say that speed endurance is the middle path. But what is speed endurance?
I would say that speed endurance is how long you can hold any race pace, and all paces are equally important in training, and all contribute to increased endurane and efficiency in different ways.
So what are you saying, that after we've "gone anaerobic", we start coming back "aerobic"?
weIInow wrote:
The term anaerobic threshold is misleading though, because we don't 'go anaerobic' in a short fast race of constant pace, rather the opposite, we actually use less and less anaerobic pathways and more aerobic pathways as the race progresses.
No need to be rude. Why you use the term aerobic threshold while actually meaning some other intensity/effort? This has nothing to do with my reading comprehension, you just use the term wrong and that´s not my fault.
rekrunner wrote:
So what are you saying, that after we've "gone anaerobic", we start coming back "aerobic"?
weIInow wrote:The term anaerobic threshold is misleading though, because we don't 'go anaerobic' in a short fast race of constant pace, rather the opposite, we actually use less and less anaerobic pathways and more aerobic pathways as the race progresses.
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We start anaerobic and then go more aerobic. When you start a fast finishing sprint, the process repeats somewhat.
So could I say, for example, in a marathon I never "go anaerobic", but in a 5K race, I always "go anaerobic", without being misleading?
wellnow wrote:
We start anaerobic and then go more aerobic. When you start a fast finishing sprint, the process repeats somewhat.
The point is that the term aerobic threshold isnt set in stone because all the coaches and exercise physiologists didnt come together and define it. It could range from 20 to 30+ mile race pace. I have heard many coaches refer to it in different ways. You were being close minded and rude by outright saying that there is only one way the term can be used.
Of course, it is what it is, but what is it, exactly? If there is only one way to look at it, what is this way?I haven't ever seen a good definition of aerobic threshold anywhere.What is the "aerobic threshold" supposed to bound, considering that things are aerobic both below and above this threshold, and why is it even important? Does anyone have a good answer?
boo hoo wrote:
Aerobic threshold is what it is, and it´s the same personal intensity level for me and you. There´s no other way to look at it.
I´m not trying to be rude, just want to make this clear.
There are many coaches who doesn´t understand where this AeT is, but what can I do with it. Very fit thriathlonists can race up to 10-13hours at AeT, so when you suggested to do "long tempos (8-10miles)at aerobic threshold" you clearly meant harder intensity than what the real AeT is.
I admit that runners aren´t thriathlonists, but because full distance thriathlon includes running a marathon it´s obvious that AeT is very economical intensity. At AeT the blood lactate is about 2mmol so this is well under the lactate threshold. Also your breathing should still be quite easy at this intensity.