Here is Horwill's advice for 5k training:
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank08.html
Is it possible to do that many workouts within such a short time? Any here ever tried or know someone who tried?
Here is Horwill's advice for 5k training:
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank08.html
Is it possible to do that many workouts within such a short time? Any here ever tried or know someone who tried?
Horwill's a quack who bastardized Peter Coe's training. He makes the tired claim that the Kenyans and Gebreselassie are doing this, which is patently false. Search Geb's training and you'll see he doesn't fool around with a bunch of anaerobic intervals, and certainly not 400's.
When he stole it he ignored the fact that Seb was running 6 miles almost every morning which he logged as junk miles.
proof????
One of his recommendations on training is once a week to have a workout where, "You have to be carried off the track"
He is a fool....
Well, he did coach Tim Hutchings (commentator for Eurosport) 4th in the Olympics. Silver twice in the WC and he was beating all but Ngugi on the country and about 50 other uk internationals
http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=2213
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Horwill
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_about_frank.html
Next up he didn't steal Coe's training - he developed the 5 pace training system which Coe used. You can actually find quotes from Peter Coe - something along the line of 'those sessions are golden'. That doesn't mean all Coe's training was Horwill based
Seb Coe: is on record as saying, "We have used Frank Horwill's multi-tier system. It's all embracing."
I actually did intensive training. Not following Horwill - just my own experiment which was once a day training (twice Saturdays) and load of intervals hills or tempo runs. What was also to fit in with work and the realisation I was never going to light up the track -so I just did the training I enjoyed (training hard!)
Now I would do more easy runs - and the main thing stay off the roads as much as possible.
I once did a series of races (evenings) 52 hilly miles over 6 days in 1 week. It was ideal training for that as I would be completely done in in the morning but recover for every evening race
But I feel I would have improved more with less intensive training and more steady runs (+ added morning runs - but was working & studying at the time). On the other hand in winter I did more traditional training and always ran rubbish and much better in summer!
The I'm hardly training but still beating you of Coe's is the oldest trick in the book - you will see it in all walks of life - especially before college exams.
But even when you add the morning runs + warm ups before circuit training - he was still doing relatively low mileage for his era
But he did do under and over best) distance races - another Horwill specialty - how many 800m runners would benefit from that now?
Short recoveries - I trained with Ethiopians and they used very short recoveries - some are predictive sessions not supposed to be run every week
As for is that possible well I'm guessing his athletes do a slightly toned down version with more recovery days - but you are forgetting how hard world class runners train. Ovett mentioned in his autobiography stepping up to 3 x per day training!
Hutchings didn't follow Horwills advice and acutally had a very ordinary training schedule(2 workouts and a long run, ~90mpw).
vcxvdsf wrote:
Hutchings didn't follow Horwills advice and acutally had a very ordinary training schedule(2 workouts and a long run, ~90mpw).
That sounds like his winter training for cross country and 90 miles per week is not really high mileage for a runner training for 12km + cc. One thing he did do in winter - this is from memory of a training article written by Hutchings in Athletics Weekly was keeping in touch with his speed. A typical English CC is 6/9 miles of hill and mud whereas the US/ European 'cc' is just a track race around a flatish golf course
I'm sure you are partly right in that he is not going to be doing track work every day - but once again I trained with Ethiopians and they were doing fast training at least 4 times per week (but nearly all on grass) + a race most weekends!
Day Training Session
Day 1 Aerobic – run half marathon distance fast
Day 2 Aerobic – 3 x 2 miles at 10km speed with 90 secs recovery
Day 3 Anaerobic – 8 x 400m at 1,500m speed with 60 secs rest
Day 4 Aerobic – 4 x 1 mile at 5km speed (target speed) with 60 secs rest
Day 5 Aerobic – 3 x 1,500m at 3km speed with 3 mins rest
Day 6 REST
Day 7 If no race: anaerobic – 8 x 200m at 800m speed with 60 secs rest
Day 8 Aerobic – run 10km very fast
Day 9 Aerobic – run half marathon fast
Day 10 Aerobic – 7 x 800m at 5km speed with 30 secs rest
Day 11 Aerobic – 4 x 1k at 3km speed with 2:30 rest
Day 12 Start the cycle again
Crazy. Why would anyone train like that once? never mind start the whole thing again on day 12?
I would train like that because I want to be fast. But I image that almost no one has the recovery ability to do it. If you look some El G training, they are pretty crazy also with the number of distance runs at marathon pace or faster and then the hard workouts.Besides after you do 3x1500m with 4 min rest and 4x1mile at 5k pace with 60s rest, 4x1k at 3k speed with 2:30 rest is like a day off.
weIInow wrote:
Day Training Session
Day 1 Aerobic – run half marathon distance fast
Day 2 Aerobic – 3 x 2 miles at 10km speed with 90 secs recovery
Day 3 Anaerobic – 8 x 400m at 1,500m speed with 60 secs rest
Day 4 Aerobic – 4 x 1 mile at 5km speed (target speed) with 60 secs rest
Day 5 Aerobic – 3 x 1,500m at 3km speed with 3 mins rest
Day 6 REST
Day 7 If no race: anaerobic – 8 x 200m at 800m speed with 60 secs rest
Day 8 Aerobic – run 10km very fast
Day 9 Aerobic – run half marathon fast
Day 10 Aerobic – 7 x 800m at 5km speed with 30 secs rest
Day 11 Aerobic – 4 x 1k at 3km speed with 2:30 rest
Day 12 Start the cycle again
Crazy. Why would anyone train like that once? never mind start the whole thing again on day 12?
You are underestimating how many hard sessions per week top athletes do. The don't do just 2 hard sessions per week! Bear in mind these are middle distance runners.
Training of Sebastian Coe. Note age and No of races!
Training at 18 years of age (1500m 3:45; 3000m 8:14):
Example 1:
Sunday A.M. 5 miles easy; P.M. 30 x 100m on slight hill
Monday 7 miles easy
Tuesday 7 x 800m
Wednesday 11 miles easy
Thursday A.M. 1 x (400m + 300m + 200m + 150) P.M. 3 miles easy
Friday 4 x 1200m, 10 x 150m
Saturday A.M. 30 x 100m on slight hill. P.M.4 miles easy
Sunday 7 x 400m
Monday 7 miles easy
Tuesday A.M. 4 miles easy. 10 x 100m
Wednesday 3 miles easy
Thursday 1500m race in 3:50
Friday A.M. 4 miles easy P.M. 1 x (200m + 400m + 300m + 200m)
Saturday A.M. 4.5 miles easy.; P.M. 20 x 200m
Sunday 1 x (100m + 300m) + (2 x 400m)
Monday A.M. 5 miles easy. P.M. 5 miles easy.
Tuesday 5 miles easy.
Wednesday 3000m race in 8:14.2
Example 2:
A.M. Work with weights. P.M. 8 miles easy.
Monday A.M. 4 miles easy. P.M. 20 x 200m in 28 sec.
Tuesday A.M. 4 miles easy. P.M. 4 x 400m + 1 x 1600m
Wednesday 4 x 150m in 18 sec, 3 x 300m in 41 sec, 1 x 400m
Thursday A.M. 4 miles easy. P.M. 10 x 400m in 60 sec.
Friday Weight work
Saturday 7 x 800m in 2:10 average
Sunday AM 1 x 200m + 400m + 200m + 300m + 4 x 100m PM 6 miles easy
Monday 4 miles easy
Tuesday A.M. 4 miles easy. P.M. strides to loosen legs
Wednesday 1500m race in 3:45
=====================
Wilson Kipketer
Example of 5-Pace Training (method used by Sebastian Coe):
Day 1: 3 x 2000m or (2 x 1,200m) + (1 x 800m) + (2 x 400m) 5000m pace
Day 2: Fartlek Run
Day 3: 6 to 8 x 800m 3000m pace
Day 4: Distance Running
Day 5: 16 to 30 x 200m alternating with 10 x 400m 1500m pace
Day 6: Rest day if race the next day, or fartlek if not
Day 7: Race or time trial
Day 8: 4 to 6 x 400m or 9 x 300m 800m pace
Day 9: Distance running on roads
Day 10: 1 x 300m + 2 x 200m + 4 x 100m + 8 x 60m 400m pace
I would tone down Horwills sessions but if you look further he also recommends frequent rest days for older vet. runnners. I could never put a runner through the rack of his training, but who am I?
From Peter Coe's Level III (USATF Coaching Certification) lecture:
Sun 4X1500 or 3X2000 5K pace
Mon Fartlek 80-100% VO@max
Tue 8X800 3X pace
Wed Road Run 80% VO@max
Thu 16X200 1500/mile pace
Fri Rest if racing, otherwise Fartlek
Sat Rest, Race, or Time trial
Sun 4-6 X 400 800 pace
Mon Road Run 80% VO@max
Tue 2X300+4X200+4X100 400 pace
Wed Fartlek 80-100% VO@max
Thu Time Trial, Race, or pace session (5K,3K,1500, 800 or 400)
Fri Repetition 100
Sat Rest
Also, the British Milers Club used to have a training plan for the AAAs (their NC) which said to do all 5 paces each week if training twice a day, or in 2 weeks if training once a day. Peter Coe said that Sebastian ran 4 of the 5 paces all training year, only dropping the 3K pace in the winter--that includes 400 and 800 paces all year.
What you see here is Peter Coe's modification of Horwill's system, not the other way around.
It's not quite intervals every day, but the non-interval days are not easy. Glen Grant has pointed out that parts of Seb's road runs were at 4:30 pace (that's part of a 6-10 mile run).
There is a huge difference between saying hard running 4-5 days a week and what Horwill is suggesting.
None of those schedules have anything that compares to
Day 2 Aerobic – 3 x 2 miles at 10km speed with 90 secs recovery
Day 3 Anaerobic – 8 x 400m at 1,500m speed with 60 secs rest
Day 4 Aerobic – 4 x 1 mile at 5km speed (target speed) with 60 secs rest
Day 5 Aerobic – 3 x 1,500m at 3km speed with 3 mins rest
The first day is somewhat reasonable. The second day is a real hard workout but I expect that most people could do it. The fourth day is a brutual workout with only 60s rest. And that last workout is almost impossible for mortals. Running 1500m at 3k pace (10-20s off your mile pr) is pretty tough. Doing it after 3 hard workouts isn't going to happen.
Doing all 4 in a row is super tough. Maybe as a crash cycle when you take a week to recover but to try and repeat is very hard.
weIInow wrote:
Day Training Session
Day 1 Aerobic – run half marathon distance fast
Day 2 Aerobic – 3 x 2 miles at 10km speed with 90 secs recovery
Day 3 Anaerobic – 8 x 400m at 1,500m speed with 60 secs rest
Day 4 Aerobic – 4 x 1 mile at 5km speed (target speed) with 60 secs rest
Day 5 Aerobic – 3 x 1,500m at 3km speed with 3 mins rest
Day 6 REST
Day 7 If no race: anaerobic – 8 x 200m at 800m speed with 60 secs rest
Day 8 Aerobic – run 10km very fast
Day 9 Aerobic – run half marathon fast
Day 10 Aerobic – 7 x 800m at 5km speed with 30 secs rest
Day 11 Aerobic – 4 x 1k at 3km speed with 2:30 rest
Day 12 Start the cycle again
Crazy. Why would anyone train like that once? never mind start the whole thing again on day 12?
Did you even read the article? Horwill said if you couldn't recover the next day, do a 30 minute easy run and take 22 days instead of 11.
At my age, I need 3 recovery days!!! so I would make it a 44 day cycle. Looks pretty good to me.
Horwill's recomandations come a long well with what Jan Helgerud tells athletes to do. Both focus a lot on vo2max and accentuate training between 85% - 95% of mhr.
You could do a block of horwill training and then do three a week. If you like that approach. All other running should be Really easy but you should have reasoned that out by now.
A lot of good athletes will do three hard workouts a week.
Another point maybe not overreacting on the whole volume thing.
A week with 3 vo2Max sessions is not that hard at all if you just do a segment of each. Say:
1 - 5 x 6 minutes at Anaerobic threshold or keeping heart rate between 88% - 92% of mhr.
2 - 5 x 5 minutes at 5 km alternated with 10 km pace or keeping heart rate around 90% - 95% of maximum.
3 - 2 x 10 x 200 at 1500 meter pace where you go out every minute.
Here you have 3 paces right in the mix and you could do a 400 meter workout on another day if it is not to anaerobic.
And if you jog each morning and evening a small amount at 65% - 72% mhr and jog one longer run (not to long unless you prepare for marathon) this shouldn't be to stressful. Actually it should feel tired like half way in a one hour marathon pace run right after the last interval.
The horwill way is exhaustion while if you hear guys like heart researcher Jan Helgerud talk you will see that it is about comfortably getting in some time at a certain heart rate or in running terms a certain intensity.
For the immune system there is a tremendous difference between 4 x 1 mile at 10 km pace or 5 km pace. The last one will keep you out of the game longer.
A heart rate monitor can well help you individualize such schedules, as with hard intensity you can monitor heart rate go back to NEAR resting levels after a couple of hours (should not take longer then 8 if well done(could be as little as 4).
This trick usually doesn't work with long hard runs. As the heart rate will get near okay level quickly but it will take much longer could be a day more before you are really recovered.
Not to say that Hutchings or Coe were dopers, but the brutal schedule laid out would mesh well with "pharmaceutically supported" recovery, i.e. steroids/hgh. Lower overall volume is tenable when using blood doping (or later) epo/cera. This is one reason (coupled with often genetically outlier recovery abilities of top athletes) that I use the schedules of elites with a huge grain of salt.
That said, I utilize multi-pace work heavily throughout the schedule, albeit with plenty of "breathing room" incorporated in the form of easier days and weeks, tailored to the individual. Incorporate the concept, not the schedule itself.
From memory Tim Hutchings did a lot of his training with Gandy's group pre Olympics. He actually stated that he struggled to cope with Horwill's training.
mopak wrote:
From memory Tim Hutchings did a lot of his training with Gandy's group pre Olympics. He actually stated that he struggled to cope with Horwill's training.
Gandy is a very underated coach.
The is a saying what makes a great coach - 'a great runner' Well Gandy does not fit into that catagory - it's interesting that Coe made his biggest improvemts whilst under Gandy at Loughborough
Dobriskey Silver in recent WC's also coached by him. Thats some span of success
Back to Horwill - here is some of his training plans with more recoveries:
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank43.htmlhttp://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank44.htmland lastly:
'Haile Gebrselassie (Ethiopia) told one of the writers’ (FH)athletes that his favourite session was 50 x 400m at 63 secs with thirty secs rest!
That was during his track days!!!'
I think the brutality of these workouts also depends on whether you are a speedier type.
I do think some of these Horwill workouts back to back to back is probably insane but I do think some types can handle something pretty close to that. I was one of those types.
Back "in the day" I had very good 400m speed. My best events were the mid distances. No matter how much I trained mileage wise my 5k and up times were never relatively as good. They weren't terrible, just not as good.
So, doing 4x1mile at 5k pace as mentioned in one of the workouts above, would have been different for me than an endurance athlete who has less speed but a better 5k time. I had enough speed and mid distance ability for the 5k pace to seem like it was an easy cruise even for as much as a mile. Even a bit of recovery and I could be good to go. Much more than a mile at that pace though and I would probably die and need much more recovery.
Also, on a day to day level, I always recovered quickly from workouts compared to a lot of people. What should be more brutal for me in some of those schedules would be the stuff like running a half mary real fast. That's insane. We used to do things called "steady state" runs for an hour sometimes and those would wipe me out more than a track workout.
I was at a coaching seminar with Gandy not long ago, and he said that the main emphasis should be aerobic training, even for 800m runners (I know that you can always debate what "aerobic training" is).
http://www.friidrott.se/nyheter/statanalys/artikel09/georgegandy09.aspx