yall, What kind of runner am I?

You've run 400 miles at once? How many times have you done this?!? Ladies and gentlemen, I think we may have a new Dean K.!!!... "HeyYo, the Ultramarathon Man"or should we call hime "HeyYo, the Ultramaraton Machine"?!?! Dude, I'd watch out hangin around Letsrun. Your little bro isn't appreciated very much in these parts and I would expect the same with you Yo.

A guess: High Vo2max, low LT.

You've got a great cardio system that allows you to deliver lots of oxygen quickly to your muscles, which is why the short intervals and races are good. And your same good cardio system gives you a pretty high aerobic threshold, as long as you stay away from your threshold. But, since your LT is low, you struggle with the intermediate distances because your LT is too close to your aerobic threshold.

Implications for training: you need more LT runs: longer, easier tempos at HM to marathon pace where you come at the lactic threshold from the aerobic side.

i'm exactly the same! I can't compete for sh!t b/t 5k-10k...on up I am better. and I am good with fast 400 type workouts. i suck at 1200 repeats...really

just to let you know, a hyphen is often used to signify "through," such as 400 meters through 1 mile.

I am the same way. We have more fast twitch muscle fibers than most other distance runners. We do great with the very short stuff or very long stuff because neither of those require a lot of aerobic power (derived by well trained slow twitch fibers). This is compounded by much of the required power in a 3k-8k having to be supplied by fast twitch fibers because you just don't have enough slow twitch. The busy fast twitch produce lactate and drive down the pH, stiffening your muscles. Try to get blood lactate test in training to confirm this, but I am willing to bet that it runs on the high side.

For the lactate reason, be very careful with intervals around your 3k-8k pace. You will easily burn out on them if they are not controlled and you will not reap the rewards that others can by hammering these like races. I would guard you against having more than one interval session or race in that zone per week. Focus more on volume, tempos, and short stuff like 400s.

Don't be discouraged towards the 3-8k races though. Paul Cummings (RIP) was a very good 10ker but his fast twitch to slow twitch was 50/50. Perhaps knowing that by being tested helped him adjust his training properly.

It is ironic that we can run well in very long distances. I think it is because the overall power demand is so low that we can keep reusing the limited the slow twitch muscles we have with glycogen stored in the liver and maybe borrowed from nearby fast twitch fibers.

Anyways, that's my take on it.

Great Responses. Thank you everyone. This is the most useful advice I've been given on letsrun.

Hopefully, I'm not reading too much into my training now, and making connections in places where they aren't, but a couple observations from my training:

1) I've experienced burn out a couple times, which normally occur after periods of hard 3k-5k pace workouts once or twice a week.

2) I usually experience the most gains during my base periods. I usually plateau really quickly when I add in track work and then the quality of my tempo and aerobic runs drop because of being tired from workouts.

3) I ran my best half marathon and maybe race after focusing on mile for 3 months and then switching to HM pace workouts for the last 2 weeks. Never felt fresher or stronger.

I had been training for the mile doing lots of 66-70 400's and then I switched to HM workouts with a lot of the paces around 5:20-5:30. That pace has never felt easier or more comfortable. Right now I've been doing more 1k's and miles and some days I really struggle to run 5:20 pace even though 6 months ago I could do 2x5k at that pace and be conversational for 90% of it.

My question, which I think has been answered is should I just focus on my strengths and train to them, i.e. easier faster repeats and more tempo work. Or train my lactic system by running more hard interval sessions?

Anyone have a good sample week for me to try?

I am running 60-70 mpw right now and hoping to run good miles indoors. However I wouldn't mind droping my 8k time before late October.

heyyo wrote:

My question, which I think has been answered is should I just focus on my strengths and train to them, i.e. easier faster repeats and more tempo work. Or train my lactic system by running more hard interval sessions?

Anyone have a good sample week for me to try?

I am running 60-70 mpw right now and hoping to run good miles indoors. However I wouldn't mind droping my 8k time before late October.

I agree with let us run's analysis. He put it more clearly than I did. Hopefully he will chime in again.

The things that will help you most are (1) Shorter, faster repeats with lots of recovery, like 6-8 x 200. (2) Longer, progressive tempos (like 40-60 minutes, working down to HM or marathon pace), and (3) Lots of easy running. On the days you are not running a tempo or a workout, try not to engage your fast twitch fibers.

Your danger will always be burn-out and over-training, so focus on consistency and stay away from gut-wrenching intensity. Racing every other week or so will provide enough of that.

what exactly is a 10k marathon?

So how do I go about testing to figure out if I have more fast twitch muscles than slow twitch and test my lactate?

I'm following the Jack Daniels approach right now and I haven't had a PR yet after 14 weeks of using his philosophies. Is that because perhaps I need something different? What do you suggest?

bump

I am the same way. My times at the mile and 5K line up with my times at the half marathon and marathon, but my 10K is terrible by comparison. I have never understood why.

For what it's worth, I also like short, fast intervals, and longer steady state runs. I struggle with things like repeat miles, and too much track work in general (other than a few 200s or 400s) leaves me feeling stale.

wow woa woa wrote:

So how do I go about testing to figure out if I have more fast twitch muscles than slow twitch and test my lactate?

I'm following the Jack Daniels approach right now and I haven't had a PR yet after 14 weeks of using his philosophies. Is that because perhaps I need something different? What do you suggest?

A lot of physio labs can do tests on lactate levels. I think we're all just speculating here about the muscle fiber composition based off of lactate levels. I personally wouldn't recommend lab testing because you can figure out the same things from analyzing your training.

The only advice I can give you is to start experimenting with your training. The first experiment you should try is the simplest: run more. The workouts are gravy on the mashed potatoes of mileage. You might start by asking yourself: how much intensity can I handly daily and weekly that will allow me to stay motivated, enjoy myself, and run as much volume as I have time for without getting injured.

Once you find your mileage sweet spot, then you can fool around with figuring out what workouts give you a good bang at what points in your racing schedule while allowing you to keep running consistently.

KISS: Run a lot. Mostly within yourself. Sometimes fast.

Perhaps you should practice the workouts you don't like, such as the hard 1200s and mile repeats with long recoveries.

So you are in disagreement with everyone else? This is my question. I do both kinds of workouts. I do hard 1200's and miles all the time, but am I benefiting from them? Hadd where are you? I need to know... do i train my strengths or weaknesses.

Care to give us some rough times? Are your 10k-hm the same level as you 400-1600 or is that just that they don't suck as much as your 3k-5k?

HEYYO wrote:

So you are in disagreement with everyone else? This is my question. I do both kinds of workouts. I do hard 1200's and miles all the time, but am I benefiting from them? Hadd where are you? I need to know... do i train my strengths or weaknesses.

Run more miles and run them all on concrete. You will be amazed.

What he said.

I want to add to remember that you're working short handed with your limited slow twitch fibers so they must be very very well conditioned by lots of easy running before you load these heavily with 3-8k pace intervals. These intervals will still play an important role, but as you pointed out, they can break you if the solid foundation is not there. And when you do do these, discipline is everything. I learned that I couldn't properly do these workouts with teammates because I was too competitive.

The fellow who said to train your weaknesses has the right idea, but not the right application in your case. Your weakness is limited aerobic power via limited or damaged slow twitch muscles - which should be trained with lots of easy running and long tempos. Going out and working on 3-8k pace intervals would be too much of an anaerobic workout for you right now.

I am very confident that you produce too much lactate and H+ ions (acid). Lactate testers are relatively cheap (few hundred bucks) and I am surprised why more teams don't invest in them given the great amount of knowledge about each athlete's energy systems that can be learned. They are small and easy to use in the field. I didn't get access to one of these until after college and all I can say is if I knew what I know now 5-10 years ago, I likely would have been able to make it professionally.

As far now is concerned, with your goal of racing decently at 8k at the end of October, I recommend scaling back the frequency of hard intervals and possibly none if you have a couple of races in between now and then. Do some long runs, keep the daily volume up and consistent, and enhance the tempos and threshold runs. Basically the stuff that you know works for you. It may not make any sense, to not have to be a hammer head in the workouts to improve, but it is especially true for runners like us.

let us run wroteI am very confident that you produce too much lactate and H+ ions (acid)....

What is that supposed to mean? Runners with more fast twictch fibers produce more lactate, so what? you can't produce too much. That's like saying Usain Bolt is too fast.

the difference is that Usain Bolt's race last 9 seconds and the OP's can last for 30+ minutes