HELP! Tempo run advice needed.

The best advice for tempos I can give you is just to go right at your lactate threshold - you should feel somewhat comfortable at a tempo pace. It's obviously going to be hard to hit 6:20 per mile when you're doing 3x2mile at 6:24. Try doing 6:40 or so, and do them at least once a week.

I notice a number of things that could make your tempo pace a little too challenging:

You could still be a little tired from your half marathon and your training since. You might need some easier weeks before concentrating on high end efforts.

You might have just had a bad day (most likely).

Are you running your tempo runs in the same shoes that you race in? Your tempo shoes will add time to your race times if they are heavier than your race shoes. And your tempo pace should be adjusted accordingly.

Try your tempo runs on a flat road or trail. The turns and the reocurring scenery of the track can be mentally exhausting.

Try easing into your tempo pace... maybe warm up jog and then 6:45, 6:40, 6:35, 6:35, and then a little faster if you feel capable.

The tempo paces found in books such as Daniel's Running Formula are meant to be a guideline. They are not concrete numbers and should be used as a starting point.

I have had some very poor tempo runs in hot weather.

Tempo runs and intervals are most effected by hot weather, sickness, off days, fatigue etc. Easy runs can be suffered through or the pace slowed down and repetitions are at least short with longer breaks. But with intervals and tempos, if you are not 100% they can be very tough to do (and the results can be very discouraging sometimes). Just keep it up...you are probably just tired from the 50% bump in mileage. Just don't quit and sit on the couch watching football...

I'm 49 and shooting for a sub-3 pr marathon in 7 weeks. Once a week I've been doing a 7 mile run and have a real hard time holding 6:40 pace. I feel like it should be easier at that pace. You sound a bit faster than me but I did do a flat 5k pr of 18:16 this year. I also do a 20 miler once a week at around 7:50-8 minute pace and run 7 days for a total of 65-70 mpw.

You know, I used to always focus on my mile pace when doing tempos and half the time I finished the workout feeling frustrated, like you, that I didn't hit the pace I wanted or couldn't hold it for as long as I wanted. Now when I do tempos, I strictly go by my HR and don't worry about my pace. This is working well and my times are improving! I'm not saying you should NEVER pay attention to your pace, but it's a nice break the way I've been doing it. Also, are you sure your max HR is accurate? I find that running at 88%-90% of my max HR is just right...anything above 90% is gettting pretty tough and is starting to feel more like an interval effort.

I don't think 6:30 pace for 5 miles is too far off for your fitness level. If you start chasing times, your tempos will turn into race pace efforts. I would look at the heat first when evaluating pace. A warm day can easily be worth 10 seconds a mile.

Just keep training hard and your tempos will eventually become as fast as you are racing now.

Are you running on the track or road? I find that I have a hard time running fast on the track. I might have trouble hitting 6:15 pace on the track for 4 miles but I'll run sub 6 pace for 5 miles if I do my tempo run on a road course.

Sometimes it could just be going into the tempo a bit tired. It sounds like you are doing the right stuff anyway, ideally you will be able to hit ~6:15-6:20 pace for your tempos right before you start tapering for Chicago. If you were running that pace now then it would probably indicate that your goal was too easy.

If it makes you feel any better, my first tempo workout before Chicago in 2006 I was running 7 minutes a mile for my 4-5 mile tempos. By the time taper came around I was running 6:15-6:20 for the same distance and I ran 2:59 very easily that year, setting a PR in the half marathon in the second half (so I was probably in sub 2:55 shape if I had gone out harder. I'm training for Chicago this year again and I'm having a similar progression.

Good luck.

I think bottom line your body is telling you a little to fast. It seems to me everything is a tempo run nowadays. Everything changes and rechanges every 2 years around here. Steadystate, Tempo, threshold ( no more threshold)all kinds of definitions of a Tempo. Your PR for 3.1 miles is 18:17, so lets say you can go 18:35 thats about 6 flat per. Not bad I'd say to be fighting to hold 6:30 for 5 miles. At 41, you dog you. Whatever we say here, it come down to your body is saying WHATS UP! Listen to it and adjust. Nice running though, I am a bit pissed, I coach HS guys and run with them, litlle older than you. We still run alot of 5k speed--20 to 25 sec off race per mile, 1 minute off race pace per (medium days)etc. Hard, med and easy.

Lactate Threshold Tempo runs were birthed in an Ex. Phys. Lab, not out on the road where actual training occurs.

Just run baby. Slow down.

Alan

Five miles at half marathon pace is a very tough workout.... too tough... particularly one week after a half marathon race. Your body reacted to the workout as one would expect. I'd suggest you run this sort of a tempo run at marathon effort.

Good luck!

I agree with PTF. Keep it down to around 20 minutes at that pace if you're doing it non-stop. Break it up if you want to do longer, but you've already been doing that with your 3x2M and 5x2000m workouts.

Thanks all, VERY helpful and encouraging advice.

Onward,

The French Bulldog

as others have mentioned ... only one week recovery and you are 41 ... that is likely the problem.

another suggestion, I find it beneficial to do those 3 x 2 miles, etc at a slower place ... but faster than race pace ... AFTER running ~10 miles or some set time. Everybody can run fast early on ... but, you get a lot more benefit by running race pace when you are already fatigued. For many folks, I think that they would derive a lot of benefit by just jogging at an easy crawl for say 90 - 120 min, then working in some MP intervals afterward.

Also doing some races 10k - 10 miles where you run a 60 - 90 min "warmup" followed by the race ... where you run faster than marathon pace, but slower than normal 10k - 10 mile race pace.

JP,

Your 5 mile tempo run is right on par with your other workouts.

When you do tempo runs that exceed 20-25 minutes in length they will slow from lactate threshold pace slightly the longer you go. In your case they slowed about 5-10 second per mile. Given that your run took 32.5 minutes that is just about right. 6:30 pace is about where that run should have been. And as far as HR goes ending the tempo run at about 91% of MHR is also about correct. You should start the tempo run in the mid to upper 80's and it will reach 90-92% by the end - perfect.

Do not worry the workout was fine. If it helps reread Dr. daniels section on Threshold work and tempo runs inparticular.

Warrior Master

The thing about training by calculators/tables and by heart rate zones is that YOUR BODY IS NOT THAT CONSTANT. The values that you are given for pace assume that you could run your personal best on that very same day. You on your own must add time to the values to account for fatigue and whatever else.

Your maximum heart rate is different from day to day.

Your blood pressure is different from day to day.

So, if you can run the value that you entered into a pace calculator on your training day, then, yes, run that pace.

However, most likely, you are NOT fresh so remember that.

bump

Don't worry so much about the pace. Try to feel the "effort" more. You should be able to find that region where you are going fast, but not uncomfortably so. That's the pace you want to run. Don't force it, ESPECIALLY this early on in your training! It is expected that you'll see a drop after a good performance, especially after something as long as a half-marathon. Pace charts are a good guide, but don't become a prisoner of them.

I didn't notice if you said what your other daily training sessions consisted of. You said you do a long run @ 8:00.

Are you also doing intervals plus the tempo?

What pace are the rest of your easy runs?

777 wrote:

Don't worry so much about the pace. Try to feel the "effort" more. You should be able to find that region where you are going fast, but not uncomfortably so. That's the pace you want to run. Don't force it, ESPECIALLY this early on in your training! It is expected that you'll see a drop after a good performance, especially after something as long as a half-marathon. Pace charts are a good guide, but don't become a prisoner of them.

Yep. I agree with this guy. The only time you need to follow a pace/clock is when you're practicing a goal race pace.