Before you say, yes I know that was about 10 years ago.
Not much is published in newspapers about track & field in the first place, relative to other sports, so this shows how important Igloi was - worthy of the New York Times.
I'm wondering if there are any European runners who were coached by Igloi that read letsrun.com. Perhaps they can share their insights with us about the man and the method?
Curious why that would be in a NY Times page with a dateline of 2008.
But anyway, check out this link to a previous discussion on here about Igloi:
Orville Atkins trained with him in Cali.
I think anything of historical importance is relative to this website. I just saw something on Cerutty and had not seen his name here recently. It's motivational to look back on accomplishments of the past and how they were achieved.
top cat wrote:
I think anything of historical importance is relative to this website. I just saw something on Cerutty and had not seen his name here recently. It's motivational to look back on accomplishments of the past and how they were achieved.
Amen, and it's one of the things I enjoy most about LetsRun.com. For example, someone posts a thread about how he enjoyed a recent talk by Peter Snell, and about halfway down the first page, Peter Snell himself posts in the thread.
How many other places does anything like that happen?
Here is an email my coach sent me a few weeks ago. He ran with Schul at Miami (Ohio). My coach said he was not a fan of this because he didn't know what kind of effort to give because this session could last for 1 interval or go on forever. It was not conducive to 1:50 800m speed.
From an unidentified Aussie (my words, JB)
I guess this is going to be hard, as I never meet Mihaly Igloi and what I know of his system is by second hand knowledge via two athletes that trained under Igloi and still use his methods today, Joe Douglas (Manger and coach of SMTC) and Bob Schul (1964 Olympic 5000m champ). It should be noted that they have adapted his methods. Igloi had his athletes on the track nearly every day (like most did in the 50/60's), whereas Joe and Bob have easy mileage days in between track sessions.
I have trained with Joe a number of times over the last 11 years and he was also coaching my brother for a few years (2003-2007). To get a better understanding of Igloi, I also contacted Bob via email a number of years ago and we shared many emails back and forth about both Igloi’s training and his adapted model that he uses to coach his athletes. Bob trained with Igloi from 1961 until late 1963 when he moved back to Miami. He spent most of those two years sharing an apartment with Joe and a number of other athletes that ran with the LATC.
Igloi had a system that was based off effort and therefore he seldom used a stopwatch. Efforts were determined by a number of different terms that I’ll try explain (Flow I know you are going to love this);
JOG a relaxed speed without any pressure on the body.
FRESH still in a relaxed state, but now you are pushing the body until the shoulders begin to feel tension. There is very little stress and you allow your body to roll along.
GOOD means the shoulders are under tension (you are still running relaxed) and there is also a slight tension in the upper body as you run faster.
HARD is running at 7/8 speed. Drive under control, but you feel like there is another gear there if you need it. Sometimes VERY GOOD is used and that is the speed in between GOOD and HARD.
SPEED means running with a shortened and smaller stride (not really used for distances over 300m).
SWING is a tempo with an elongated stride. Joe uses this sparingly (I personally hate it) and Bob does not use this at all. Igloi dropped this from his program during the mid 60’s. Joe uses this in the middle of a session and it would be something like 6x250 good swing tempo with 150 jog.
It would take me too long to type up a weeks worth of sessions under Igoli as there are just too many reps..every day was on the track with reps sometimes morning and night. An example day would be (from Bob’s journal in Oct 1963); This was during XC season at Miami(JB)
Tuesday
Am; 1 mile jog
32x100 (1 fresh swing, 1 good speed, 1 good swing, 1 hard speed)
Pm; 1.5 mile jog
10x100m (fresh swing)
10x150 (fresh speed)
400 jog
6x150 (hard speed)
400 jog
1x800 (good maybe 2:00)
800 jog
4x600 (fresh 65 sec 400 pace) 200 jog
400 jog
3x260 (hard speed build up)
10x100 cool down
As I said, lots of reps, or as I put it to Joe one day, sneakily disguised volume. I remember a day all too well when Joe told me I had an easy day and gave me the following (but didn’t tell me what I was doing until the end of each set).
7 laps warm up (1.5 miles)
10x100m (2 easy, 1 good)
10x150 with 50 jog (2 fresh, 1 good)
400j
Speak to Joe..how do you feel? Good. Ok, do another set..
10x150 with 50 jog (1 fresh, 1 good)
400j
Speak to Joe..how do you feel? Not bad. Ok, do another set..
10x150 with 50 jog (2 fresh, 1 good)
400j
Speak to Joe..how do you feel? I'm fine. Ok, do another set..
10x150 with 50 jog (1 fresh, 1 good)
800j
Speak to Joe..how do you feel? Well that depends on how more f*** 150's you are planning to give me! Ok, just do a quater 'hard'. How fast is that? Whatever you feel 'hard' is..OK great, I'll run hard then, just don't give me anymore 150's.
400 (hard) 48.3 (I was not running at 7/8 th speed and there was no other gear left in my tank )
10x100 cool down,
Total 14.8km!
My dad was coach by Mihaly Igloi at Loyola HS in Los Angeles. My father also became my own coach so I'd like to think Mihaly Igloi was my grandfather of coaching.
Yes, there was good swing, easy, and hard swing. Also Igloi was very big on not having his runners wear watches or be concerned with time. Workouts were based on how tired you felt afterward and the effort put in. I will have my dad post more about him.
While Igloi's runners REPORTED to the track every day, 2-3 days per week were 'easy' days.
We would be sent for a run in the park, when we were at USC, and around several fields when we moved to Rancho La Cienega H.S.
Coach would say '40 minutes easy' (or 50 minutes, or one hour). And off we'd go, in small groups, for our allotted time.
There was, of course, no guarantee that you wouldn't be hit with something hard after your easy run, such as 20x100m all out, or even a timed half mile or two on the track.
Igloi was very careful when he let runners leave the track even on easy days. He once told us a story about his top Hungarian runners. Igloi sent them out for a run, and later found them lounging on the grass behind some hedges. He doesn't allow the group to know that he has discovered their ruse. So upon return to the track, he lifts up each runner's sweat shirt, placing his hand on their t-shirt and replies: "no sweat, run again."
Of course, an easy day consisted of two workouts (except on Sunday) and a total of at least 15 to 18 miles of running. All of my running, even on easy days, was on the 600+ yard grass oval with Coach Igloi watching. Sometimes, it was only the morning workout that was easier than normal.
Towson exile wrote:
Here is an email my coach sent me a few weeks ago. He ran with Schul at Miami (Ohio). My coach said he was not a fan of this because he didn't know what kind of effort to give because this session could last for 1 interval or go on forever. It was not conducive to 1:50 800m speed.
From an unidentified Aussie (my words, JB)
I guess this is going to be hard, as I never meet Mihaly Igloi and what I know of his system is by second hand knowledge via two athletes that trained under Igloi and still use his methods today, Joe Douglas (Manger and coach of SMTC) and Bob Schul (1964 Olympic 5000m champ). It should be noted that they have adapted his methods. Igloi had his athletes on the track nearly every day (like most did in the 50/60's), whereas Joe and Bob have easy mileage days in between track sessions.
I have trained with Joe a number of times over the last 11 years and he was also coaching my brother for a few years (2003-2007). To get a better understanding of Igloi, I also contacted Bob via email a number of years ago and we shared many emails back and forth about both Igloi’s training and his adapted model that he uses to coach his athletes. Bob trained with Igloi from 1961 until late 1963 when he moved back to Miami. He spent most of those two years sharing an apartment with Joe and a number of other athletes that ran with the LATC.
Igloi had a system that was based off effort and therefore he seldom used a stopwatch. Efforts were determined by a number of different terms that I’ll try explain (Flow I know you are going to love this);
JOG a relaxed speed without any pressure on the body.
FRESH still in a relaxed state, but now you are pushing the body until the shoulders begin to feel tension. There is very little stress and you allow your body to roll along.
GOOD means the shoulders are under tension (you are still running relaxed) and there is also a slight tension in the upper body as you run faster.
HARD is running at 7/8 speed. Drive under control, but you feel like there is another gear there if you need it. Sometimes VERY GOOD is used and that is the speed in between GOOD and HARD.
SPEED means running with a shortened and smaller stride (not really used for distances over 300m).
SWING is a tempo with an elongated stride. Joe uses this sparingly (I personally hate it) and Bob does not use this at all. Igloi dropped this from his program during the mid 60’s. Joe uses this in the middle of a session and it would be something like 6x250 good swing tempo with 150 jog.
I like this story mate, but i have to query the same couple of things once again.
Shoulders under tension from fresh and upwards i don't understand and can't agree with. Whilst i have my reasons i found Cerutty had already developed a way to combat the problem of increased tension in the shoulders. This video is a greta example of having no tension in the shoulders under great fatigue and strain (was that the Rome 1500m final towson?).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7311129901851313869Herb has his hands held a specific way that Cerutty taught. Cerutty saw this as the correct natural way to hold the hands and he found it took tension out of the shoulders. I have found this as well and so has most athletes i show it to. This grip is exactly as a punch would be but held lightly, as if you are holding air inside your fist. The feeling is that the grip in the hand should be held all the way from the elbow down. When this grip is on correctly the forearm can swivel easily in both directions (pronation and supination). When the grip is held correctly the shoulders should have far less tension in them. Another thing that can be felt by some is that the grip that is held creates a feeling of strength in the lower stomach - in the gut.
(also Herb is running in all three dimensions. Most are running in two.)
So if all of this is true, and all of this is designed to remove tension from the shoulder girdle to allow arm strength to flow all the way down the spine into the hip girdle, and to therefore connect with the leg action more effectively, then deliberately adding tension into the action is definitely another approach entirely. Unless i am missing something.
The second point refers to the swing and the speed actions. I see them as opposites. Speed is to shorten the action a little from the norm and swing is to lengthen from the ideal. Anatomically, what is acting is the femur in the acetabulum or the thigh in the hip. In the speed action the femur is retracted into the hip during the pickup phase and in 'swing' the femur is extended during pickup. They are two halves of the whole and the ideal is a perfect balance. ONe athlete will need more of one than another to find their natural balanced technique. Also developing the ability to change from one to another is a running technical skill and i love the fact Igloi had such technical ideas going on in his system.
Any corrections/additions would be appreciated.
flow
ps i would love to know why Igloi dropped swing from his program.
I was coached by Mihaly Igloi during his last three years prior to moving to Greece. SWING tempo was a integral part of the training throughout that period. As a side note, Igloi spent less time on the upper body, and more with his tempos. However, he did encourage his athletes to flex at the elbow during arm swing, rather than maintaining a rigid position.
You must be a cousin!. I was coached by Tabori and and the workouts posted above are very reminiscent of Tues/thurs nights at valley college.
What i really want to discover from Igloi is why did he make his decisions. Why swing or speed or different tempos or different distances or different combinations of distances.
What were the rationale behind his decisions or did that information stay inside his head?
i am seriously interested in these questions.Please Orville or anyone who might have some idea on this side of things, i would love any info you might have.
Ghost of Igloi wrote:
I was coached by Mihaly Igloi during his last three years prior to moving to Greece. SWING tempo was a integral part of the training throughout that period. As a side note, Igloi spent less time on the upper body, and more with his tempos. However, he did encourage his athletes to flex at the elbow during arm swing, rather than maintaining a rigid position.
Hi Ghost,
I'm wondering if you can help on a couple of things. Firtly does the elbow flex mean that the elbow changes angle through its motion?
And the other thing if you don't mind is what was swing tempo used for? I'm thinking it could be used as a corrective tool for athletes who have developed too much tightness in their style whereas speed tempo could have been used for athletes whose technique had become a bit loose. Or was it simply a technique to master? Or were they used as recovery sets between more intense sets?
cheers for any insights
flow
From an unidentified Aussie?
I wonder who that could be...LOL
hey JR, cheers for the info mate, anyway can you email Joe or Bob or Johnny and ask them what Igloi used the swing tempo for?
flow
flow,
I am unable to answer your questions. I was the runner and Coach Igloi was the Coach. I trained with the coaches that I ran with because I had the confidence that they had the system and knowledge to make me a better runner. I did not have the training in Kinetics or Physiology to understand the intricate details of their systems. I ran, worked, and tried to get enough rest to do the next workout. The only person that I am aware of who had the needed knowledge and background and who Coach Mihaly Igloi specifically trained to understand The Igloi System was Joe Douglas.