Accuracy of Road Roace Courses During the '70s and '80s

Sorry--typo on the subject line. I meant "road race." Just trying to deny the grammarians their moment.

Johnny Rotten wrote:

I ask, because when you look at road race results from this era, when I first began running, you find many, many small 5K's or 10K's being won with relatively fast times--under 15:00 or under 31:00. .

There were no such thing as 5k's aback in the 70s and 80s so I suspect you haven't "looked back" at road race results like you claim?

Back in the early 80s over 200 Americans ran 2:20 in the marathon each year.

Uh, there were plenty of 5K races back in the day. I remember running one the week after the state track meet in 1984, in fact. In fact, in the archives of several large track clubs (such as the Chattanooga Track Club) are loads of 5K results, in addition to many 10Ks and other off-distance races.

Perhaps, Historian, you have an answer to the question of the accuracy of the race distances? Maybe all those marathons were short?

Johnny Rotten wrote:

Uh, there were plenty of 5K races back in the day. I remember running one the week after the state track meet in 1984, in fact. In fact, in the archives of several large track clubs (such as the Chattanooga Track Club) are loads of 5K results, in addition to many 10Ks and other off-distance races.

Perhaps, Historian, you have an answer to the question of the accuracy of the race distances? Maybe all those marathons were short?

Why not say those marathons were all short. Every one of them, short by a mile!

In 1981 44 Amercians ran 2:15 for the marathon, in 83 44 did as well, in 85 25, in 86 21. Care to take a guess how many Americans broke 2:20 in the marathon in 2004? 2005? 2006?

JRotten, it's impossible to answer your query w/any satisfactory degree of authority. During the 70's, know this; probably 95% of all courses were measured my methods other than a calibarted bike w/a Jones counter or by a calibrated measuring wheel used properly. There were a LOT of short courses in that decade.

Things improved in the 80's but I doubt much better than 1 in 2 courses were measured by methods that would help ensure accuracy (not a car, bike computer, etc). Frankly, I'd guess the # was closer to only 33% were measured accurately. There's no way to know for sure because ALL courses weren't checked by somebody on a calibrated bike w/a Jones counter.

Even today, there are an extraordinary # of courses that are measured short. I've yet to hear of a non-certified course to be found long (except when a wrong turn was made).

scotth wrote:During the 70's, know this; probably 95% of all courses were measured my methods other than a calibarted bike w/a Jones counter or by a calibrated measuring wheel used properly. There were a LOT of short courses in that decade.

What's the matter Scott, are you doubting the accuracy of the odomenters on the 70's VW microbuses commonly used for measuring? Back then if you had a Jones, you counted her.

Pretty much all non-certified courses in my area turn out short.

I do remember that my first couple of road race times seemed about what I was capable of running, given my track times.

I wonder sometimes about the comparisons between runners from that era and road runners from this era.

Johnny Rotten wrote:

Pretty much all non-certified courses in my area turn out short.

That has to do with a lot of well meaning people going out an wheeling courses down the center line of the road. It's amazing how much you lose by not doing the tangents. I've seen LOTS of wheel measured courses off by over a 1/10 of a mile over 5K.

I had one in a nearby town that the guy had it measured by the country GIS system on the centerline, then he wheeled it on the centerline to be sure. He had a bunch of people nearing state records for a few years and found he had to certify the course for them to qualify. He was pretty pissed when I told them they needed to add 230 meters.

Johnny Rotten wrote:

Pretty much all non-certified courses in my area turn out short.

I do remember that my first couple of road race times seemed about what I was capable of running, given my track times.

I wonder sometimes about the comparisons between runners from that era and road runners from this era.

I think your experience tells more about the measuring skills of races in Bumfu

Johnny Rotten wrote:

Uh, there were plenty of 5K races back in the day. I remember running one the week after the state track meet in 1984, in fact. In fact, in the archives of several large track clubs (such as the Chattanooga Track Club) are loads of 5K results, in addition to many 10Ks and other off-distance races.

I've never ever heard of a 5k road race (other than Carlsbad) until the 1990s. How did I miss the wave of the future?

Keith Stone wrote:

What's the matter Scott, are you doubting the accuracy of the odomenters on the 70's VW microbuses commonly used for measuring? Back then if you had a Jones, you counted her.

Keith, I had a Ford Pinto I swear was right on the money for distance back in the day!

My road bike comes up pretty accurate too. But, not good enough altho I'd use it to measure a course for somebody that just wanted something reasonably accurate (w/in 50' for a 5 km).

Historian wrote: I think your experience tells more about the measuring skills of races in BumfuWhy are you being a dickhead? JR is a consistently decent poster on here, and this is an interesting and legitimate question. Someone piss in your cornflakes this morning?

malmo wrote: I've never ever heard of a 5k road race (other than Carlsbad) until the 1990s. How did I miss the wave of the future?

malmo, did you sleep through the 80s?

Here's a list of top 5k road times for a very small province in eastern Canada:

:14:19 Norm Tinkham Halifax 1990 Ormocto 5K, Ormocto, NB 1963 27 M 5 25-29

:14:33 Bo MacGillivray Stellarton 1987 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1959 28 M 5 25-29

:14:35 Smartex Tambala Bedford 1987 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1965 22 M 5 20-24

:14:52 Randy Bullerwell Halifax 1991 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1957 34 M 5 30-34

:14:54 Jeff Gorman Halifax 2004 Great Lakes Challenge 5K, Toronto 1978 26 M 5 25-29

:15:03 David Layton Truro 1986 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1963 23 M 5 20-24

:15:04 Norm Tinkham Halifax 1988 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1963 25 M 5 25-29

:15:05 Dan Hennigar Halifax 1996 Spring Tune-Up 5K, Halifax 1971 25 M 5 25-29

:15:19 Dan Kontak Halifax 1986 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1955 31 M 5 30-34

:15:20 Randy Bullerwell Halifax 1995 5K Spring Tune-Up, Halifax 1957 38 M 5 35-39

:15:29 Dan Soucoup Halifax 1987 TUNS 5K, Halifax 1949 38 M 5 35-39

:15:32 Sandy Pirie Halifax 1987 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1966 21 M 5 20-24

:15:34 Rob Bevans Halifax 1987 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1959 28 M 5 25-29

:15:35 Andy O'Rourke Halifax 1989 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1964 25 M 5 25-29

:15:35 David Conen Halifax 1987 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1967 20 M 5 20-24

:15:35 Derek Estabrook Dartmouth 1986 Sri Chinmoy 5K, Halifax 1964 22 M 5 20-24

:15:38 Andy O'Rourke Halifax 1988 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1964 24 M 5 20-24

:15:39 Gerald Romme Halifax 1987 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1962 25 M 5 25-29

:15:40 Ralph Williams Centreville 1986 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1952 34 M 5 30-34

:15:42 Freeman Churchill Halifax 1987 5K Spring Tune-Up, Halifax 1953 34 M 5 30-34

:15:42 Mike Hamilton Middleton 1986 Sri Chinmoy 5K, Halifax 1963 23 M 5 20-24

:15:43 Gerald Romme Halifax 1986 TUNS 5K, Halifax 1962 24 M 5 20-24

:15:45 Ralph Williams Centreville 1989 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx. 1952 37 M 5 35-39

:15:45 Ray Williams Dartmouth 1987 TUNS 5K, Halifax 1954 33 M 5 30-34

:15:47 Mike Hamilton Middleton 1989 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1963 26 M 5 25-29

:15:47 Jamie Thompson Antigonish 1987 TUNS 5K, Halifax M 5 30-34

:15:49 Walter Smith Trenton 1989 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1962 27 M 5 25-29

:15:49 Lawrence Elliot Halifax 1987 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx M 5 25-29

:15:50 Tim Ellis Dartmouth 1989 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx M 5 00-19

:15:52 Richard Horne Dartmouth 1986 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx M 5 25-29

:15:54 Mike Bailey Truro 1989 5K Spring Tune-Up, Halifax 1959 30 M 5 30-34

:15:54 Walter Williams Dartmouth 1987 TUNS 5K, Halifax 1942 45 M 5 45-49

:15:55 Freeman Churchill Halifax 1989 TUNS 5K, Halifax 1953 36 M 5 35-39

:15:56 Paddy McCluskey Sydney 1987 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1969 18 M 5 00-19

:15:57 Richard Horne Dartmouth 1987 TUNS 5K, Halifax M 5 30-34

:16:00 Tremaine Brownell Halifax 1986 Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, Hfx 1953 33 M 5 30-34

Only 4 of those times were run after 1989.

"Historian": I'm not asking about track.

I'm asking a legitimate question about the accuracy of road courses from our most legendary era. It's a fair question.

A buddy of mine asserts that 25-30 years ago, when he was in his prime, you had to run 14:40 for a 5K or sub 31:00 for a 10K in order to win a lot of races in this area.

Given my admiration for local runners of that era, I took that at face value.

Then I wondered about the accuracy of courses, since I do not remember anything involving the word "certified" until relatively recently.

I'm going to just assume that you have no info that will help answer my question.

Malmo, on the other hand, may prove helpful. Let's just stick with 10K races, for the sake of consistency. What was your experience with course accuracy during your heyday? Maybe they were ruthlessly accurate. That's what I'd like to know.

All were in the last half of the decade and taken from a quite small group of races. Hardly indicative a wave.

Pete wrote:

Only 4 of those times were run after 1989.

Wow, Pete you found one recurring 5k in the middle of nowhere where exactly 17 athletes ran 5:00 pace over a span of 21 years. What was I thinking? The Athlete's Foot 5K Spring Tune-Up, (duh moment) I'm so embarrassed to overlook such an event!

I'll repeat this Pete, the only 5k race I've ever heard of before 1990 was Carlsbad. I've run exactly two 5k races, one in 1996 and one in 2001.

malmo wrote:

Wow, Pete you found one recurring 5k in the middle of nowhere where exactly 17 athletes

Typo: 12 athletes.

From the mid-80's on, there were more & more 5 km road races & the competitive level roughly paralleled the increasing # of races. I could look it up...but am feeling lazy.

malmo wrote:

I've never ever heard of a 5k road race (other than Carlsbad) until the 1990s. How did I miss the wave of the future?

While the 10K was the main deal, I remember a whole series of Grape Crush Rush 5Ks along with Coors Light Silver Bullet 5Ks.

I wouldn't imagine that someone of your talent at the time would have been running any one them, but they were all over.

I remember Pepsi was dong a whole bunch of Pepsi Challenge 10Ks. The little town of Glenwood, MN (pop. 1800) was one of the very first Pepsi Challenge 10Ks and was the proud recipient of 2500 Pepsi 10000 Challenge T-Shirts. In the late 90's they finally used them all up.