TRAINING

Renato,

Thank you for the interesting posts. However, I do not understand your reasoning in saying

". For Kenyans, the tradition is for cross, steeple, 5000m, from Keino, Jipcho, Biwott winning steeple in Mexico City, and their natural type of training is good for HM more than for any other event.

BUT THEY HAVE NO A CORRECT MENTALITY FOR MARATHON."

Seems like they are doing pretty well to me.

Ahh, that makes a lot of sense. So you're really trying to set your body up to be able to maximize what you get out of your subsequent lactate threshold training!

So far, I haven't seen then need for transitioning from basebuilding to speedwork before focusing on lactate threshold workouts. I would automatically PR at shorter distances just due to being a newer runner so I skipped right to LT. However, now that I am entering my third year of training, I see what you mean by: "'For me, running long and slow is very easy, after many years of activity'". I have been unable to hit my paces in the shorter races and tempo runs despite having much better fitness than last year.

Now that I'm in the middle of the anaerobic endurance phase, I should soon be able to hold the paces of which I know I'm capable...hopefully.

Thank you sir!!

Hodgie-san, I think Renato is referring to Kenya's dismal record in Championship marathons. Clearly the talent pool is deep enough.

hmmmmm.... because they lack the proper mentality?

Ask Renato, not me.

Yes, dear.

Dismal record in Championship Marathons? In the modern era, last 7-years, that is rather a off-the-cuff comment:

Eric Bronze and Silver Olympic medals

Joyce Chepc. Bronze Olympic

Catherine Nder. GOLD World Championships

Simon Biwott Silver World Championships

Dismal??? - God give America a dismal record and they'd be a different tune playing!!

Kenyans in World Championships Marathon

1983 zip (none in top 10)

1987 gold Wakiihuri (Japanese trained)

1991 zip (none in top 10)

1993 zip (top Kenyan 7th)

1995 zip (none in top 10)

1997 zip (none in top 10)

1999 zip (none in top 10)

2001 silver (no more in top 72)

2003 zip (top 8th, 4 DNF)

Kenyans in Olympic Marathons

Before 1984 zip

1984 zip

1988 silver Wakiihuri (Japanese trained)

1992 zip

1996 bronze Wainaina

2000 silver Wainaina

Renato and Malmo are right, Kenya has a dismal record in championship marathons.

Renato:

Regarding training in the last two months before a marathon race, I am gathering that you say that high volume is a good idea. I am wondering what you think about running a good amount of kilometers even during the week of the race. I have noticed that some marathoners, though they have done many long runs in training prior to the marathon, have "hit the wall" or slowed downed a lot in the last 10km of their marathon race. I have wondered if their routine of reducing their kilometers a lot was the problem. Have you observed that some runners lose endurance if they reduce their volume before long races? If so, what do you recommend?

pumpkin wrote:

"'For me, running long and slow is very easy, after many years of activity'".

Jesus - you even miss out chepchumba from the list above! Two medals in the last Olympics from a possible 6 is not dismal for one country.

American wins an Olympic medal - huge revenue from national sponsors, Euro wins = same.

Kenyans get a hearty pat on the back! STILL 33% of the Sydney marathon 2000 Medal haul is not dismal.

Are you betting that neither the (Affluent) Ndereba or Tergat will not take a medal in 2004?

1988 silver Wakiihuri "(Japanese trained)"

Does this mean that Bikila would have to have "Trained by a Swedish coach living in Finland" After his name?

For your knowledge, and let's start at the base; Kenya only became its own country in 1963. Prior to which the athletes were not encouraged to run. The athletes now traveling to the near neigboring Nigeria have been greatly reduced due to lack of traveling funds.

The theory in team selection is if you have a chance for Silver/Gold you have a better than non chance of traveling to the race. The fact that Kenya's histrionics in the marathon portray this does not make the huge leaps made in the last seven years (your words) dismal.

Give me a country that would not want Kenya's record of Gold & Silver WC medals in '01/'03, and Silver & two bronze in the last Olympics, apart from Ethiopia.

Kenyan marathoners are the greatest power in the world about the distance. However, when I say that Kenyans have not a correct mentality for running marathon, I really want to say that for Kenyans Marathon isn't a specialism in their mind from the beginning of their activity. Kenyans fear marathon, don't love it. Ethiopians love marathon. Also Gebre wants to finish with the world record in marathon, in other case he doesn't feel the greatest. He had a big poster of Abebe Bikila at home, as Abebe was his myth. The first race of Gebre was a full marathon (when he was 16 years old) finishing n. 99 in Addis Abeba in 3:06.

Every year, there is a promotional marathon in Addis Abeba that involves more than 200 new runners, never active before. Instead, Kenyans have fright about the distance. This is the reason because is correct to speak about Wakhiiuri as Japanese Trained. Wakhiiuri went to Japan for training with a Japanese coach in 1985, because in Kenya vwas not possible to train for a Marathon, due to a wrong mentality. For a Kenyan (yet today, if is not in one of the group of Marathon runners), health is shape, and shape is shape for every event. One of the things that I try to teach to Kenyans is that health is important for traininig, training is important for reaching a good general shape, and specific shape is due to specific workouts (so you can be in top shape for 5000 non beeing able to run HM, for example). Many Kenyans, after winning, think that it was possible "because I'm strong". But many are strong, and about strong athletes the best trained wins.

Also Wainaina lives and trains in Japan.

About women, is another problem. Really, NOBODY IS ABLE TO TRAIN IN KENYA. Catherine Ndereba trains in USA, Joyce Chepchumba, Tegla Loroupe in Germany with Wagner, Okayo in Italy with Rosa, Barsosio and Kutol in Italy with me, Wanjiru in Japan. In Kenya doesn't exist a right ambience for training marathon (for women), and all the best prefer to train long time abroad.

Another fact is that they are not advanced in their tactical knowledge. Normally, in Kenya they run long distances without drinking, without measured courses, without tarmac, without flat roads. So, are not prepared for knowing exactly marathon. They are strong, but many times their interpretation of the race is casual, and can be good in a normal marathon, not in a Championships.

If you think how many top runners there are in Kenya, you must admit that Italian and Spanish won more medal (in proportion) then Kenyans in the big Championships.

Renato, how long should my longest training run at marathon pace be and when should I do it?

Like in many cases, the solution of this problem is individual. I want to bring two examples :

1) Orlando Pizzolato, was able running 28'22" 10000m on track and yet non able to finish well a full marathon. He reduced his mileage very much during last week, using at the same time the diet without carbohydrates (first 3 days of the last week) and with load of them during the last 3 days. He really finished his fuel about 30-32 km, during all marathon in the period 1982-83. His coach Giampaolo Lenzi decided to try a marathon at the end of a normal week, and results were better. So, from 1984, Orlando ran yet more than 200 km during last week. For him, to reduce too much volume it meant to have too much time for thinking about the race, consumpting all his nervous energies.

The volume was so a mean for facing the race with another tranquillity, because volume was yet high, but intensity decreased very much. With this system, Pizzolato won New York, and was able to be competitive for 4 years (from '84 to '87) also in important championships.

2) Maria Curatolo, the smaller top class athlete in the word (1,44 tall x 38 kg), in 1987, at the end of a week with 256 km, ran for training a HM without any pressure.

The Italian best was of Laura Fogli (1:12'32"). After 15 km, she asked me "how am I going ?", and I replied "If you run last 5 km in 16'15" you beat Italian Record". She told me "In this case, we try", and improved her pace terribly. At the end, her time was 1:12'17", new Italian best.

On the contrary, when she had to compete in a very important Championship, she needed to break completely her training during last 3 days, for recruiting nervous energies. So, is clear that was not a problem of work, but of nervous energies.

In any case, of course it's not possible to training on Speed Endurance in the last week before the race.

Normally, in our method, during last 3 months approaching the race, we use to alternate (about every 10 days) a work of DURATION (improving time, from 2 h to 2 h 45, adding 15 min every time) and a work of DISTANCE, run at Marathon Pace.

In this case, we start from 25 km, then (at the same speed) we go to 28, 32, 35 km.

The pace, for a work of DURATION, is not very fast, and only the last 30 min are more brilliant.

About DISTANCE, the pace is MR pace. Is good running at EVEN PACE till last 2-3 km, then to improve to Marathon Pace in the last 5000m

The pace of DISTANCE is the same of the rhytm that you can p'repare for running marathon. Of course, this one is a more tough work that normal long run, because is more "specific" and needs different preparation.

Renato, is there any chance you can start posting a thread on the methodology you use to train 800 m runners? It would be greatly appreciated. Hope to hear from you soon.

More Championship Marathon stats

World Championships Marathon

ITA 7,13,3,7,13,6,8,4,7,2,5,10,3,11,3,6 (83,83,87,87,87,91,91,97,97,99,99,99,01,01,03,03)

JPN 1,5,5,12,3,6,7,5,8,9,12,5,10,12 (91,91,93,95,99,99,99,01,01,01,01,03,03,03)

ESP 12,14,1,5,6,1,2,6,15,1,8,15,2 (83,91,95,95,95,97,97,97,97,99,99,01,03)

ETH 2,15,9,11,12,13,1,4,7,10 (83,87,91,99,99,99,01,01,01,01)

GBR 8,5,12,13,4,7 (83,87,91,93,95,95)

KEN 1,7,9,2,8 (87,93,99,03)

TAN 5,15,6,11,15 (83,83,87,93,01,03)

AUS 1,4,11,8,3 (83,87,91,95,97)

USA 3,1,10,13 (91,93,95,97)

MEX 7,2,9,15 (91,95,95,95)

RUS 8,11,8,9 (87,87,93,97)

RSA 12,15,7,9 (97,99,03,03)

KOR 4,11 (93,03)

Olympic Games Marathon

JPN 4,4,2,4,8 (84,88,92,92,92)

KEN 7,2,3,2 (84,88,96,00) ALL Japanese-trained

GBR 3,6,4,4 (84,88,96,00)

AUS 5,5,8,7,(84,88,88,96)

ITA 1,5,5 (88,92,00)

KOR 1,2 (92,96)

ETH 1,3 (00,00)

ESP 4,5 (96,00)

TAN 6,7 (84,88)

MEX 6,8 (96,96)

RSA 1 (96)

RUS

USA

hey even i can find mistakes here - f_ chucker. look at ethiopia - didn't roba win 1996 too? are you a non-female lover, or does not she count? which brit was #4 in 1996, don't you mean 5th? USA 1984? Not a medal DURR, and Kenya had two medals in 2000 marathon.. should I continue? bored... logging off