What a joke. In addition to the training was the East German systematic doping of their athletes as was revealed when the Iron Curtain fell. W.C. is a fraud.
What a joke. In addition to the training was the East German systematic doping of their athletes as was revealed when the Iron Curtain fell. W.C. is a fraud.
Sceptic wrote:
Would the anabolic steroids he was given actually helped in training for Marathons?
Yes. The steroids enable you to recover more quickly and do more hard training. Ask Regina Jacobs or the AW group.
not that it matters... wrote:
What a joke. In addition to the training was the East German systematic doping of their athletes as was revealed when the Iron Curtain fell. W.C. is a fraud.
In addition to the training was the East German systematic identification of promising youngsters at school level, scientific training methods that were 10 years ahead of their time, well-organized training camps, and a "health culture" at all levels of society. Cierpinski also led a simple life, devoid of the West's distractions and obsession with money. He fosused on races that mattered, not on prize money.
In terms of performance enhancing drugs, as far as I can see, the world is pretty much a level-playing field. If you are looking for a nation's receipe for success, look elsewhere.
It is hard for me to fathom a defense of Cierpinski here (still naive in my old age I guess). I wonder if this has generational elements. Could those of us who lived through through '72 and '76 defend Cierpinski and believe he didn't take place in the East German program? Bringing Mo Greene and others in indicates an absence of understanding of the times. In addition, I rarely see a blood doping reference to Viren when Pre's '72 5k gets ripped on these boards. Needing test results, complete records, etc to defend ill will towards Shorter and Pre is pretty transparent.
Boston27 wrote:
It is hard for me to fathom a defense of Cierpinski here (still naive in my old age I guess). I wonder if this has generational elements. Could those of us who lived through through '72 and '76 defend Cierpinski and believe he didn't take place in the East German program? Bringing Mo Greene and others in indicates an absence of understanding of the times. In addition, I rarely see a blood doping reference to Viren when Pre's '72 5k gets ripped on these boards. Needing test results, complete records, etc to defend ill will towards Shorter and Pre is pretty transparent.
Exactly right.
"In addition, since the communist regime ended, the capitalist system in East Germany has been hard on the people there, and unemployment pressently in East Germany hovers around 20-30%."
Boy. If more East Germans had nominal "jobs" back then, that doesn't mean that they were actually working. In fact, what's been "hard" about the capitalist system in the former East Germany is that people are expected to do productive work, satisfy customers and clients, etc. The vaunted German work ethic pretty much withered and died under communism. (Oh, and by the way, you can ask actual eastern Germans whether they were better off under communism. Some say yes; most do not.)
I presume the author of the article is a French person, which makes some of his/her sentiment easier to understand. France is the country that limited working hours, in the belief that more jobs for young people would result. (The opposite is true.) In other words, these folks don't understand the concept of a growing, dynamic, "free" economy--their sympathies are likely to be with any formerly-socialist country that's painfully confronting reality.
However, despite my rant, I have no doubt that WC worked his f'in' ass off. Steroids, if handled properly (and the DDR's doctors and coaches were the experts in this area), promote quicker recovery and permit harder and more frequent training sessions. WC used steroids and as a result was *able* to work his ass off.
I feel I must set things straight here, as you seem to be a victim of US propaganda...
My wife is Polish, and I lived in Poland at the time of the fall of the wall. You want to know the reality?
My mother-in-law is a secondary school teacher... before 1991, she was making a decent living (by decent, I mean earning enough for food, rent... the normal necessities). Holidays were paid for by the state, healthcare was above average (certainly, for instance, far better than what it would be in Britain), there was no unemployement, and the streets were safe at night. She worked hard (35 hours of teaching a week) and led a simple, happy life.
Since then... well... drunkards in the street who can only afford to drink cheap perfume; levels of insecurity which are hard to believe; violence a daily reality; not enough money to put but the most basic food on the table; no healthcare... the list is endless.
Those who profited from -and are happy for- the fall of the wall, are the leeches who saw the opportunity to make a very good living at the expense of those who have a social conscience.
Your concept of a growing, free economy is simple: profit from those who haven't had the luck of your education, then supress their voice.
I won't say communism was all that... of course it wasn't. And the flaws of the system have been much commented upon by the West. But at least, if you could put your trust in the basic goodness of people, it was a system with a conscience ; not one that hides its greed behind the concept of a free-market and appeals to the worse qualities in man.
Just think for a moment about the peculiar vanity, self-absorbtion, and shrewd bastardness it takes to become a politician. It is those people that were reponsible for all the faults of communism; and they sure as hell are responsible for the nasty piece of work (from a moral standpoint) that is capitalism.
There is documentation that was kept by the stasi at the Medical Academy of the National People's Army in Bad Saarow, east of Berlin. His doping record was meticulously kept.Werner W. Franke, 1 Division of Cell Biology/0110, German Cancer Research Center, Im Neuenheimer Feld 280, D-69120 Heidelberg, Germany has the original copies.
ghost wrote:
...before coming up with statements like "he should give his medal back'' a lot more than circumstantial evidence should be provided.
ghost
And of course wrote:
dmb wrote:The stasi doping documents are as good as a positive test. Just about everyone out of east germany was dirty who competed in the olympics. You might want to get your head out of your ass before popping off.
I probably shouldn't waste my time with a mental midget like you, but hey, its letsrun, I can't resist.
If you think that meticulously kept doping documents are "circumstantial" evidence then I think you're a waste of DNA and you probably should have been aborted (or at least sterilized).
If you think that innuendo and rumor constitute evidence, then you probably missed your time by a few hundred years. They could have used you at Salem.
The circumstancial evidence on ALL of the people listed is very strong, retard. Wake up.
ghost wrote:
These days (Waldmar Cierpinski is 57 years old) W.C. realizes that he has has run since the age of 14, and since that time (age 14) has covered more than 250.000 km. He still runs twice a week, and he also plays soccer twice a week. For his 60th birthday, W.C. plans to run a marathon in around 2:50, and for the above reasons, Cierpinski still looks remarkably fit and trim for his age, without any extra weight.
I bet Waldemar Cierpinski can still beat Frank Shorter.
ghost wrote:
These days (Waldmar Cierpinski is 57 years old) W.C. realizes that he has has run since the age of 14, and since that time (age 14) has covered more than 250.000 km. He still runs twice a week, and he also plays soccer twice a week. For his 60th birthday, W.C. plans to run a marathon in around 2:50, and for the above reasons, Cierpinski still looks remarkably fit and trim for his age, without any extra weight.
[/quote]
I've never heard of a document specifically pinning anything on Cierpinski. He is guilty by association. It's naive to think he'd be one of the few clean East German athletes, but why should we be convinced that Shorter was any cleaner?
Who's to say what people would find if the "wall came down" at USATF? Certainly Americans should be the last people to excuse their own losses with rampant doping in other countries. Too much dirt on too many US athletes.
)old tymer wrote:
(
ghost wrote:People who take drugs and other illicit substances usually pay for the use many years down the road.
ghost
I suspect that this is largely myth--a myth we create, given all the movies and TV shows we've seen in which, in the end, virtue triumphs and vice receives it's "just" punishment. Unrotunately, real life isn't always like that.
FLO JO
LYLE ALZADO
CYCLISTS DIED WHO DID EPO BEFORE THEY GOT DOCTORS TO THIN THE BLOOD LIKE THEY DO NOW.
GEB TOOK 14 ASPIRIN A DAY TO THIN HIS EPO....
DRUGS ARE CHEATING.
I would say that because Cierpinski came from a country which ran an organized and official doping program and Shorter didn't, the odds of Shorter being dirty are less than the odds that Cierpinski is.
Having said that, if there were a few clean East Germans then it's possible that Cierpinski might have been one. Someone had to be. And while I would consider having his name on a list of doping subjects pretty strong evidence, I have to say that I have not seen an actual list and don't know anyone who has. What I've seen are comments from people who say, "Cierpinski's name is on that list," but those people may simply be repeating what they've heard others say.
Spiny Norman wrote:
I've never heard of a document specifically pinning anything on Cierpinski. He is guilty by association. It's naive to think he'd be one of the few clean East German athletes, but why should we be convinced that Shorter was any cleaner?
Who's to say what people would find if the "wall came down" at USATF? Certainly Americans should be the last people to excuse their own losses with rampant doping in other countries. Too much dirt on too many US athletes.
WC was identified in the documents by a specific number, which was then listed with the doping protocol.
Paddy O\\\\\\\'F wrote:
old tymer wrote:)(
I suspect that this is largely myth--a myth we create, given all the movies and TV shows we've seen in which, in the end, virtue triumphs and vice receives it's "just" punishment. Unrotunately, real life isn't always like that.
FLO JO
LYLE ALZADO
CYCLISTS DIED WHO DID EPO BEFORE THEY GOT DOCTORS TO THIN THE BLOOD LIKE THEY DO NOW.
GEB TOOK 14 ASPIRIN A DAY TO THIN HIS EPO....
DRUGS ARE CHEATING.
Basic rules of logic here. It is possible that my original statement is not true. However, what you have written does absolutely nothing to prove it wrong.
HRE wrote:
I would say that because Cierpinski came from a country which ran an organized and official doping program and Shorter didn't, the odds of Shorter being dirty are less than the odds that Cierpinski is.
That's right because the U.S. doesn't have any drugs, and all the pharmaceutical companies and drug companies in the U.S. aren't organized, and there aren't that many doctors who prescribe drugs and no drug ads on tv, no drug ads spammed in email.... oh...... wait...........
And Shorter's dad was a medical drug doctor and Frank went to medical school.....
What was the question again?????
What MEDICAL school did Shorter attend?
