The 3:34 was in Nairobi 5,500ft altitude
The 3:34 was in Nairobi 5,500ft altitude
Czech guy wrote:
I didn't say anything like this. I am only saying that without EPO, they couldn't get under 3:32. Think about it.
"Schizophrenia is a serious mental illness characterized by a disintegration of the process of thinking, contact with reality, and of emotional responsiveness."
I don't want to contest the stupid words of Czech Guy, that thinks to know a lot about Kenyans but really doesn't know anything.
Instead, I give you some more info about Silas Kiplagat.
1) Silas is born on 20th of August 1989 in Marakwet. His date of birth is correct, like all the dates of birth of athletes starting running inside some Military Corp (Silas, like the second rabbit Collins Cheboi, at the moment specialist of 3'34"17, and like a new specialist of 800m that can become in the future on of the top 5 in the World, Job Kinyor born in 1990, are in Administration Police) as Police, Prisons or Police Administration. We cant say the same for athletes of Army.
2) The reason for what I explained is that in Police Administration (the responsible is called Katam) and in Police, the athletes are recruited when very young, and for having the job they have to produce a birth certificate that must be "official" and must be controlled by the Police itself. Instead, about Army, the Corp looks for recruiting athletes, free but already known in the circuit, that "before" being recruited, in many cases used a false birth certificate (in Kenya it's easy to have, if you are born in a small village) in order to appear young for becoming interesting for managers, not knowing their real age.
3) The Federation nothing can do for controlling the real age. This because the most part of the athletes, at the beginning of their career, don't have any document (also the normal ID). In the past, approaching the World Youth Championships, many athletes went to compete (5-7 years older) without producing any document, and, if qualified in top 2 or 3, only AFTER they went to ask for a birth certificate (of course, in this case, not real), and, after having this certificate, asking for their first Passport (they could have it ONLY with the permit of AK).
When AK understood that the most part of these athletes were overage, they put a rule that may be not correct, but is the only way for reducing the problem : ONLY STUDENTS COULD COMPETE, AND THEIR CLASS WAS THE PROOF OF THEIR AGE.
4) Really, what happens in Kenya is that, on the mountains, many children start to go to school not when are 6 years old, but when are 10. So, in any case, it's not possible to have a perfect control on the situation.
5) Silas (174 x 57 kg) was in good evidence at the beginning of last year, when he won 3 following domestic meetings (in Kakamega, Eldoret and Kisumu) running under 3'40", after duels with Collins Cheboi. He signed with a manager from Nederland, that put him in some road race (normally about 10 km), instead trying to qualify the guy for his main event. For that reason, Silas wrote a letter to AK at the end of last year, asking to cancel the contract because he didn't want to run on the road, thinking to be able to run 3'32" this year.
6) He uses the programs of Moses Kiptanui, together with other athletes of different events (Sammy Kitwara, Elijah Chelimo are the most representative).
7) We plan his activity in order to become consistant, chosing competitions not for money, but for confirming his talent.
8) His next competition is African Championships (the final of 1500m is on Saturday, 31.07). After it, Silas has 2 different options :
1) He arrives in top 3 in African Champs : he's selected for the Intercontinental Cup in the African Team, and needs to be in shape for the beginning of September, in order to try to win the competition (already he will compete in Brussels, on 27th of August). In this case, his first competition in August can be the Mile in London (13.08), and may be a 3000 before Brussels.
2) He doesn't arrive in top 3 in African, so is not selected for African Team (difficult...). He can compete more frequently, looking for Commonwealth Game if AK goes to change the date of their Trials (from 28/29 August till half of September).
9) About the situation of doping, if somebody really knows Kenya, this is one of the most ridiculous ideas that people can have. Of course, somebody coming from Czech Republic, grown with the culture of doping like all the Countries of the old Communist System, cannot believe that is possible to run fast without any supplement. But he speaks in this way because doesn't have any historical knowledge about athletic in the past.
Sammy Koskei was able running 1'42"28 in 1984 : do you think with EPO ?
The reason because Kenyan spent long time before becoming competitive in 1500m (but don't forget that Keino won OG in 1968 and Peter Rono in 1988, and in the middle they didn't win because didn't run for the boycott...) was that, living in altitude, THEY NEVER USED BEFORE TRAINING OF HIGH INTENSITY WITH VERY SHORT RECOVERY, typical for the runners of UK (Coe, Ovett, Cram, Robson, Elliot, Moorcroft) and of Maghreb (Aouita, Morceli, El Guerrouj).
Only when Kim McDonald started to teach a more intensive system of training, Kenyan runners became stronger in 1500m. I agree that the most important quality of Kenyan runners is a very high AEROBIC POWER. This quality, alone, is not enough for becoming one of the best in the World in 1500m. But, if when you have this quality (and very good biomechanical technique, and strong reactivity from your feet, and good level of relaxation while running) you ADD some intensive workout of stamina, the final product is under 3'30" without too many problems.
Under this point of view, we NEVER had some Kenyan running at top level 800/1500 (may be the only Noah Ngeny, that in any case could be very good also in 3000m), but many able running 1500/3000/5000, typical range for AEROBIC runners.
And, in any case, with 3'29"27 Silas is the 10th performer all time : may be that the other 9 in front of him were more doped than him ?
Try to be serious, stop speaking of doping everytime some new guy from Kenya or Ethiopia appears. I'm sure there are athletes of these Countries that use some doping, BUT NOT AMONG THE TOP. I have too many prooves that, IF YOU ARE A TOP TALENT, DOPING CANNOT WORK. I live with them, I train them, I eat with them, I drink with them, sometime I sleep with them, and I think to know the most part of things they do and their way of thinking : for that reason, I know very well that their attitude, and their mentality, is absolutely far from the idea of doping.
" I'm sure there are athletes of these Countries that use some doping, BUT NOT AMONG THE TOP. I have too many prooves that, IF YOU ARE A TOP TALENT, DOPING CANNOT WORK."
Seriously: Do you want to kill me by writing this bullsh*t?
Bump!
on the runs wrote:
Czech guy wrote:I didn't say anything like this. I am only saying that without EPO, they couldn't get under 3:32. Think about it.
"Schizophrenia is a serious mental illness characterized by a disintegration of the process of thinking, contact with reality, and of emotional responsiveness."
In 1986, the best time of a Kenyan in the 1500 m was 3:33,07. In 1994, it was still only 3:32,13. In 1997, it was suddenly 3:29,46 and there were 4 Kenyans in a single year, who ran under 3:31. In 2001, it was 3:26,34. Amazing improvement! Now I know that everything they needed was that...high intensity training, right? God damn, it could make wonders in some today's Euros!
In the 800 m, it was the same. The time of Koskei in the 800 m from 1984 (1:42,28) was from a single race. He never got close to it again. The second fastest Kenyan only ran 1:43,57. In 1994, there still wasn't any other Kenyan, who would be able to break 1:43. But then there appeared EPO...ehm...well...high intensity methods, and between 1995-98, five Kenyans suddenly ran under this mark.
Isn't it amazing, how these high intensity methods worked, irrespectively of distance? You are a mediocre runner, and within a single winter, you become a world class!
Dream on!
"THEY NEVER USED BEFORE TRAINING OF HIGH INTENSITY WITH VERY SHORT RECOVERY, typical for the runners of UK (Coe, Ovett, Cram, Robson, Elliot, Moorcroft) and of Maghreb (Aouita, Morceli, El Guerrouj)."
It is really interesting that the high intensity training didn't work appropriately well even in North Africa before 1995; but in winter 1995-96 they obviously developed some more sophisticated system, judging from the stellar explosion of times that the whole Africa enjoyed.
I thought the following was VERY interesting from Renato, and confirms why many of us don't put any stake whatsoever in what times are run by "juniors" from E. Africa. Not that they are not great times, often for any age, just that they don't mean JR. to us anymore than Sr. I'm not saying that some of them aren't legitimately Jrs, but considering that so many are not and that many don't improve as seniors, it's not worth noting much more than road kill unless they actually improve and show up as seniors. And I quote:
"2) The reason for what I explained is that in Police Administration (the responsible is called Katam) and in Police, the athletes are recruited when very young, and for having the job they have to produce a birth certificate that must be "official" and must be controlled by the Police itself. Instead, about Army, the Corp looks for recruiting athletes, free but already known in the circuit, that "before" being recruited, in many cases used a false birth certificate (in Kenya it's easy to have, if you are born in a small village) in order to appear young for becoming interesting for managers, not knowing their real age.
3) The Federation nothing can do for controlling the real age. This because the most part of the athletes, at the beginning of their career, don't have any document (also the normal ID). In the past, approaching the World Youth Championships, many athletes went to compete (5-7 years older) without producing any document, and, if qualified in top 2 or 3, only AFTER they went to ask for a birth certificate (of course, in this case, not real), and, after having this certificate, asking for their first Passport (they could have it ONLY with the permit of AK).
When AK understood that the most part of these athletes were overage, they put a rule that may be not correct, but is the only way for reducing the problem : ONLY STUDENTS COULD COMPETE, AND THEIR CLASS WAS THE PROOF OF THEIR AGE.
4) Really, what happens in Kenya is that, on the mountains, many children start to go to school not when are 6 years old, but when are 10. So, in any case, it's not possible to have a perfect control on the situation."
Really? Oh, these are heartbreaking, shocking news for me! Who would say that "noble savages" from Kenya would dare to cheat? Incredible! And they wouldn't touch doping, either!
nairobi = altitude
Czech guy wrote:
Really? Oh, these are heartbreaking, shocking news for me! Who would say that "noble savages" from Kenya would dare to cheat? Incredible! And they wouldn't touch doping, either!
I don't think you understood my point very well. Bye the well I'm not disagreeing about the EPO. Somehow people simply cannot read the numbers.
EPO comes out, WR's explode, explode, explode. EPO test comes out. WR's and top end death come to a grinding halt. ONLY Bekeley runs top times and even those wither away.
Look, buddy, you don't have to believe or agree, but when a busy, successful coach takes the time to come on here and share his perspective, please have some respect and be civil. You've stated your opinion and made your point, anything further you say will only detract.
Czech guy wrote:
Really? Oh, these are heartbreaking, shocking news for me! Who would say that "noble savages" from Kenya would dare to cheat? Incredible! And they wouldn't touch doping, either!
Look, lots of people cheat. It's a professional sport that pays out well (incredibly well, depending on the athlete's country of residence) at the top. Why wouldn't people cheat? They're in it to make money, not for the honor of the sport.
That said, two questions:
1) Where's your line? What times can you believe are unaided, and why?
2) Why you gotta be a dick about it?
I think I've been to the Czech Republic more times than you. I've been once
Why would you need drugs to run 3:29 - UK runners were doing these times 30 years ago and they didn't have the advantage of being born/trained at altitude
Also what was that rubbish you were going on about them being too small. Seb Coe was 5'9
The East Africans were always good they have got gradually more dominant ever since the 60's
Czech Guy, I don't understand your obsession with Africans doping. Europeans and Americans have been the biggest offenders, after all. There is literally no reason to think Europeans/Americans don't dope and Africans do, especially when the doping systems have been in place for decades!
Basil H. Rathboener wrote:
Czech Guy, I don't understand your obsession with Africans doping. Europeans and Americans have been the biggest offenders, after all. There is literally no reason to think Europeans/Americans don't dope and Africans do, especially when the doping systems have been in place for decades!
Umm do you even know where Morroco and Algeria are???
Give me a list of the last 5 years of U.S. distance running doping offences. How about a list of test evasions?
Now why don't you give me the same lists for Kenya, Ethiopia, Morroco & Russia. The reality and truth will smack you in the face so hard you will get knocked out cold.
As far as distance running goes, those 4 countries rack up more positive tests and test evasions than the rest of the world (US included in that) combined.
Just use the eyes god gave you and your brain. When Komen finished his 12:40 and 7:20 races the dude looked like he had just run a modest repeat. El G with his numerous sub 3:29 races? Like it was nothing. Ramzi, same story. The Russian broads who have flashed on, then out to nowhere or a positve test. Same thing. It's friggin obvious. It's not the guys struggling at the back or mid pack and wasted after the races.
Russia is a part of Europe. Eastern Europe, Italy, Spain, and China have all had organized doping in the past, so they shouldn't be free of suspicion. Add to that list the Finns (autologous blood doping) and probably the Brits (there are suspicions about Coe et. al).
Given that there's no test for blood doping, of course Americans aren't missing tests. They can't test positive!
Czech guy: Your argument is very simple. You think that Ngeny, Kipketer, El G, Morceli, and Lagat took EPO. It really doesn't require you outwardly bringing down an entire nation of athletes or making wild claims. Unless, you think a guy like Leo Manzano or Nick Willis is doping because your other data points are guys running 3:31 and 3:32. Why you consider Coe/Cram the absolute perfect prototypes for 800/1500m runners whose accomplishments can not be improved upon I don't know.
just a man wrote:
Look, buddy, you don't have to believe or agree, but when a busy, successful coach takes the time to come on here and share his perspective, please have some respect and be civil. You've stated your opinion and made your point, anything further you say will only detract.
Seriously - you would want me to adore a man, who posts such an outrageous crap? This is an insult for every man with traces of common sense.
"EPO doesn't help!" "Top athletes are not doped - only the mediocre losers can dope!" "Kemboi ran 28:00 and he decided to improve - within 6 weeks he ran 26:30!" LOL
I don't want and don't need to be "adored" by anybody. I need only to be respected for what I did, what I do, what I know. You are free to think what you want, and I'm free to think what I think. But, BECAUSE I HAVE PROOVES THAT ATHLETES COMPLETELY CLEAN (not only, they NEVER took any support, also legal, because is not part of their and my mentality) CAN RUN THE WORLD RECORD (Shaheen, Paul Kosgei, Mary Keitany), CAN WIN WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS (Christopher Koskei, Dorcus Inzikuru, Florence Kiplagat) and CAN IMPROVE IN VERY SHORT TIME WHEN ABLE TO HAVE FOCUS AND GOOD TRAINING FOR A PERIOD OF 3 MONTHS (in the case of Nicholas Kemboi only 50 days...), I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT DOPING CAN HAVE THE EFFECT THAT MANY SUPPOSE.
I'm sure about my athletes. There are scientific articles speaking about the advantages of EPO in long distances (8" for steeple, between 40" and 1'10" for 10000m), and of course I cant believe that, if Shaheen used EPO, he could run 7'45" in steeple, or my 6 athletes able running 10000m between 26'30" and 26'52" could run under 26'. Probably, you never saw in your life WHAT THE TRUE TALENT IS, and you speak about something you don't know.
I want to remind you that EPO was created for helping patients having problems in their kidneys. In this case (a big deficit in the work of kidneys) the possibility to increase the ability in transporting O2 could increase of a percentage about 30%. One question : DO YOU THINK THAT TOP AFRICAN RUNNERS ARE PEOPLE WITH SOME PROBLEM IN THEIR KIDNEYS ?
I don't say that EPO doesn't work. If I run, at my age, 1000m in 4' in a test, with EPO prabably I can run 3'50". I sat that EPO doesn't work for top athletes, because the most important talent for long distance runners is the ability in increasing THE TOTAL VOLUME OF BLOOD IN THE BODY OF A PERCENTAGE OF 20 / 25% (MEANING ABOUT 1 LITER OF BLOOD MORE IN THE BODY), without enhancing the viscosity.
Only few athletes have this attitude, the most part are African : THIS IS THE TALENT MAKING DIFFERENT THOSE RUNNERS FROM THE OTHER. So, if you want to find doped athletes, look at the athletes of middle-high level, not at the top champions.
The case of Florence Kiplagat is clear. She ha her baby on 24th of March 2008. She started the preparation, still 12 kg. heavier, in September. In October and November she had only one session per day. At the end of November 2008 she reached her normal weight, and we went to 12 sessions per week. In January she competed in 2 cross in Spain, winning. When she came back, I made her training more heavy, with 13 sessions per week, about 200 km of average and a growing intensity, with the goal to win Kenyan Trials and to win Silver in WCCCh (in my mind, behiand Dibaba). In Amman, Dibaba was not there, and Florence became World Champion, exactly one year after the birth of her baby. After an easy April, in May we went to push on track, and she was able running 30'11". After this, she had a problem of discopathy, that didn't allow her to run well in Berlin, and she had to stop till the last February completely.
If she was able running 30'11" in this way (and really, looking at her age and her training, this is no better than 80% of her possibility), WHY I HAVE TO THINK THAT RUNNING 29'30" WITH A FULL SEASON AND FULL MATURITY CAN BE A MIRACLE ?
Czech guy, you are like a mechanic (may be good) working with normal cars, that doesn't know anything about the Formula 1, also if the principle are the same : but the material, the preparation, the global project, are different. SO, AT THE END, YOU SPEAK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T KNOW.
But, of course, you are free to continue to post stupidities, exactly like me going to speak about arabic literature (that, obviously, I don't know).
I don't fear to put my face when I speak about what I really know, because ALWAYS I SAY THE TRUTH, this is my problem in the World of today.
Good luck for the future sanity of your mind.
P.S. : About Silas Kiplagat, I wrote that he is for Police Administration : it was a mistake, because he is an athlete for Kenyan Prisons, training with other runners of Police Administration.