Ran 36:30 10K... need some advice on training paces

Why the hell are you doing your "long"runs at 6:12 pace? Why are are your "long" runs only 10 miles? You must have gone to a crappy program or you didn't learn anything about training.

I agree with the previous poster. Too much speed work. Why don't you try adding speed later closer to a peak instead of doing mad speed and getting no base in? Mileage and aerobic base are better for long term improvement. If you're into burning out, or getting injured in a few months, don't change a thing.

He claims the workouts feel comfortable. My guess is that he is nothing like a 36:30 10k runner. Rather, he is an out of shape 15:00 or even 14:30 5000m guy. So what looks like terribly fast speed work for a 36:30 guy is really a cake walk but doing him no good. What we are trying to convince him of is that he needs to drop all the speed except for strides until his mileage is back in the 80-100 mpw range.

runner39 wrote:can you post a few examples of the different paces that can be used in alot of different ways for 5k/10k

Here's a selection of possibilities, working various aspects of fitness:

800 pace:

6-10 x 80-100m strides with 100m jog rest, either during warmup for a workout or after an easy run when you feel fresh

2 x 6 x 300 with 2:00 standing, mile jog between sets

mile pace:

8 x 400 with 200m slow jog rest

8-10 x 400 with 3:00 standing rest

2 x 6 x 300 with 100m slow jog, 800 between sets

3k pace:

8 x 600 with 200m slow jog

6 x 800 with 200m slow jog

5 x 1000 with 3-4:00 standing rest

5k pace:

5 x 1000 with 200m slow jog

4 x 1200 with 200m slow jog

3 x 1500 with 3:00 standing rest

10k pace:

2 x 10-12 x 400 with 100 slow jog, 800 between sets

25 x 400 with 100 slow jog

10 x 1000 with 200 slow jog

5 x 2000 with 400 slow jog

3 x 3000 with 800 slow jog

HM pace:

25 x 400 with 100 slow jog

8 x 1000 with 200 slow jog

2 x 5k with 800 slow jog

4 x 3k with 800 slow jog

6-8 x 2k with 200-400 slow jog

M pace:

4 x 3k

3 x 4k

3 x 5k

2 x 8k

4 x 5k

2 x 10k

20k

M pace plus 20-40 secs/mile:

10k

16k

etc....

Note the workouts as listed are shown in rough order of difficulty, more or less.

some random dude wrote:Note the workouts as listed are shown in rough order of difficulty, more or less.

[quote]ReturnToOurHomepage wrote:

I ran a 36:30 road 10K this past weekend.

quote]

Wow, I am amazed at all the narrow minded replies you have received so far.

First, I do not believe your training paces are too fast. If you can do them consistently for 3 weeks and even improve them a little, you should keep that intensity. If you start to feel tired, then you know you are running them too fast.

I don't think your 10k time is indicative of what you could run if you took a down week and had more rest. Doing those workouts the same week as the race turned the race into a tempo pace run.

When I was running 35:20, I could not do those workouts running 5-10 seconds slower/mile. If you can do those workouts another 2 or 3 weeks and take an easy week, you should be able to run 34:30-35:00.

I also think the intensity is right for 51 miles a week. If that is all you want to run, I like that you are getting a speed workout, a tempo, and a long hard run. If you want to build up to much more mileage, then your paces will slow down for a little bit.

The McMillan running calculator is useful for these types of questions.

The underlying issue seems to be whether the 36:30 10K was a true race level performance, or basically just another tempo workout.

If you're training for the 800 and Mile then what does this 10k have to do with anything. Racing the 10k is pointless. If you're trying to get fast for summer track you need to be in a base phase and 51 miles is not base. Try 80-100. Forget the speed work for now. You need the strength. Even if you just did 80-100 a week at 7 minute pace. Monday-Friday split the mileage into 2 runs. Saturday do at least a 12 mile tempo, Sunday go long ( at least 15 miles). Then after a couple of months only cut the mileage down if you need to and go into a speed phase. In the beginning of the speed phase run 600's and 800's. Then move down to quicker 200's, 300's, and 400's. When you begin racing cut the mileage down to 60 miles a week and listen to what your body needs. This is how I would do it in a rough layout.

What was your base, Anaerobic Development like before leading up to this race? And for your long run I would suggest slowing it down but go longer. Learn how to run by feeling and do not rely on a watch so much, even on your tempo run.

I think your tempo pace is right on target. You'll want to slowly increase the distance. That's what I'd be doing if I was in your shoes.

Your long run though, there's no need to hammer it every weekend. You said your long term goal is the marathon and for that you'll want to build more endurance. That means running easier longer. McMillan would put your long run pace from 7-8:00/mi. Of course you can run tempo during some of your long runs, but there's no need to do it every single week. Longer long runs also make a huge difference at the end of a shorter race. The last 5k I ran I felt strong at the end because I had been doing higher mileage.

I recently ran a 16:25 5k, my 6-8mi tempo pace is in the 5:40s. My long tempo runs are in the 6:0x range. I'm sitting at 75-85mpw building for Boston.

That's a great start. Rather than suggest a speific workout, I'd first point to a race about 3-4 months from now and set up a program toward that goal race (you can fit a few in during the cycle spaced about 3-4 weeks apart). I'd read Running with the Buffaloes first. Then, I'd scale the workouts to that plan with emphasis on the three key workouts (I think Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday (long)). I ran about 45 min the other 4 days, and was able to run almost the same reps as a "full Goucher". Remember to run "as they run," not as fast as they run. It's a proven Lydiard system of training. It works!

Good Luck

I was once running similar tempo workouts as the OP, but without the 4 min/mile pace track session. I "raced" 38 flat for a 10k for my first race back in a LONG time that spring, got pissed, took a down week, then ran 16:58 for 5k the next week.

Yes, I'm slower than you, but that one week of reduced mileage (45 instead of 70), coupled with one fast track day between the two races, I was able to get to a 5k time that dropped my jaw in comparision to just 7 days prior.

[quote]BBT wrote:

The McMillan running calculator is useful for these types of questions.

quote]

I would always do the workout first and then compare it to the calculator. Doing it the other way around leads to trouble if you don't hit the marks you think you should.

The OPs workouts are right in line with a 35 minute 10k.

This is the OP updating my post.

Last week I readjusted some training paces and ran three key workouts:

- 12 mi long run - Ran 10 miles at the prescribed MP (6:34) then ran the last two at prescribed HM pace (6:06)

- (2x200M + 1x400m) x5 - prescribed paces (jogging equal distance recovery)

35, 35, 73

34, 35, 72

34, 35, 70

34, 35, 72

34, 34, 70

- 6 x1000m @ 5K pace - 3:34, :28, :28, :29, :28, :23 (2:30 rest)

So all in all, the paces felt okay. The repetition workout, felt okay - it was more REP pace running that I had been running before, but it felt okay. The 1000s were the first kind of interval/5K pace running that I had done for the year. So it got tougher at the end, of course. I felt like this was an okay week.

Now so far this week:

I did a Long Run easy this time, just ran right at 7-flat pace.

- First workout I did a 4 miles Threshold pace run (6:01, 6:06, 5:59, 5:59). I meant to make this a five mile run, but I was feeling like I had put WAY too much effort into running four miles right above six mile pace. So I dropped it and decided to make it four miles.

- The next day (yesterday) I ran 6 miles in the morning, and then decided to run 10 miles fast that evening. I ran the whole ten miles without looking down at my Garmin watch once, so I did not know the pace. I was running a "fast/marathon type pace" but I ran based off a "comfortably hard" pace. I finished with a 6:16 average and the last two miles in 6:02, 5:57.

... So I guess my legs just bonkered on the four mile threshold run, it felt like WAY too much effort to run at that pace. And then the next day I run comfortably hard for 10 miles and finish with the same pace in the last two miles at the end of 10, as I did with four.

I plan on running an 8x800m Interval workout this Saturday, 3K-5K pace (2:35-2:45).

So that's the update, any thoughts? I think I'm just abandoning the idea of a 4-5 mile threshold run and just turn into all my long runs into comfortably hard efforts, at marathon/half marathon pace, with 10mile pace finishes. I think that workout better suits me as a threshold/marathon workout.