Let me tell you about the time I was on testosterone...

Hey PhD, What is your source for HPTA disruption being permanent with resumption of training and eucaloric status in males and females?

geetar wrote:

Typical runner or sockpuppet wrote:

Those boosts are transient. Just like winning a game of Go Fish will raise your test, and losing a game of Go Fish will lower it. They will have basically zero effect on your average level throughout the day. The only meainingful way to boost your testosterone is to take testosterone.

This^. Trying to get this concept through people's thick skulls is a daunting task.

Exercise induced increases in test remain elevated for 15-60 minutes according to research. Also, test is higher in morning lower in afternoon. Weight training later in day has a greater effect on test vs training in morning. Again, this rise is still short lived.

Runners, any many athletes in general, overtrain to some extent and runners especially live in a caloric deficit. This has a great negative impact on test. So...if runners could "somehow" increase test to even just a high norm, much less to the very liberal 4:1 ratio, the benefits would be extraordinary.

Alan

heres a similar story that i came across a little while ago. its about cycling but basically tells the same story.

GottaSayIt wrote:

digapony wrote:

Everyone is so righteous on here but.......in my prime 35 yrs ago, if I plateau'd at say a 13:25 5k and someone told me I could likely get close to 13 with PEDS, I think I would have dabbled........

Yes. I dont think many people on here are being honest with themselves, or they are soooo far removed from actually having to make that choice that it's easy to pop off about how they would never even consider it.

IF you thought you could run professionally for the next 5-8 yrs OR you need to bag it and become a fun runner just hitting some local road races, getting a real job, etc.. I can't say that taking the PEDs wouldn't be very tempting.

I'm just a fun runner age 45 and it would be very tempting. Think how great it would be to train hard, recover, and train some more, even harder! But the health risks would deter me.

You are right about Clomid being a very helpful testosterone booster (via a rather strange estrogen blocking pathway) I have read many times doctors are unwilling to prescribe it but it does not surprise me as doctors/ the whole pharma industry doesnt care finding a better solution than T itself anyway..I am absolutely sure Clomid is safe to use(not less safe than T). I think Clomid alone would be beneficial for distance guys etc.. and agree with the mentioned caloric deficit and T downregulation I am not any more familiar with the mechanism responsible for that action tho

It seems while LH hormone is in range (that means the signal telling the testes to produce T is not "maxed out") taking Clomid would be beneficial..

The most important note on why Clomid is a no no for runners is because the long detection period... as it is a completely synthetic drug its easy to detect

Hey idiots:

http://list.wada-ama.org/list/s4-hormone-and-metabolic-modulators/

two words: Tammy Thomas.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/extreme-makeover-tammy-thomas-trial-article-1.285258

HPTA wrote:

Hey PhD, What is your source for HPTA disruption being permanent with resumption of training and eucaloric status in males and females?

Just years of experience working with everyone from elite, Olympians in endurance sports to middle-aged women who've dieted themselves into the Fem. Athl. Triad. Never seen anyone recover to normal training (if it's an athlete) without having to use drugs. Once the HPTA is disrupted, it never seems to go back to normal on it's own...unless the person stops training (or even exercising much) altogether.

Another method:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130107161424.htm

http://www.nutritionj.com/content/11/1/67

Red wine might help you cheat (depress T levels in urine, but it might depress epi T as well), but it also seems to boost T levels, again naturally,

If you do things like a bunch of sprint groups do them, which would be to:

track workout

weight session (2 hours later)

wine at dinner (2 hours later)

You might be able to keep your T levels elevated naturally for some time....and I sleep better than if I was doing things the Salazar way.

Yes, let me be clear, Clomiphene is most definitely banned and not ethical for elites. When an elite suffers an HPTA disruption, their career is essentially over unless they want to try to get away with using a banned substance. But for non-elites it could be an option if they want to continue to exercise and maintain normal hormone levels, or for elites who want to stop competing but regain normal hormone function.

As to the mechanism for caloric deficit and HPTA disruption, that I can't speculate. Somehow the hypothalamus "knows" that there has a been a chronic caloric deficit.

Also for anyone wondering, I have seen this happen to elite athletes who thought it was a good idea to go on a low-carb/high-fat diet, even though they were not in a calorie deficit. So it seems like the hypothalamus is somehow sensing the amount of carbohydrate energy that is available. Maybe hbA1c level? Who knows?

runningart2004 wrote:

Exercise induced increases in test remain elevated for 15-60 minutes according to research. Also, test is higher in morning lower in afternoon. Weight training later in day has a greater effect on test vs training in morning. Again, this rise is still short lived.

Runners, any many athletes in general, overtrain to some extent and runners especially live in a caloric deficit. This has a great negative impact on test. So...if runners could "somehow" increase test to even just a high norm, much less to the very liberal 4:1 ratio, the benefits would be extraordinary.

Alan

Restating this a bit: imagine the incremental benefits accumulating over weeks and you get clear and overwhelming performance gains. Not EPO gains, but meaningful gains.

I don't think you mean HPThyroidA...Perhaps the HPTesticularA, or HPGonadalA as it is also known. I have seen people recover from low-T by increasing to a calorie surplus and lowering amount of exercise. Alternatively, drug therapy with clomid, tamoxiphen, or HCG can return levels to normal/original levels and won't require long-term use or testosterone therapy.

so what is your go-to edible form of testosterone? couldn't you just eat the gel? or spread it on toast?

asker of things wrote:

so what is your go-to edible form of testosterone? couldn't you just eat the gel? or spread it on toast?

You can always spread some Andriol tabs on a toast if that makes it somehow "more natural" or not cheating lol..

Let me tell you where I'd be tempted. I had a career ending injury. If someone told me that there was a drug I could take, that would mean I could run again, get normal function back, and the drug was a PED, I'd take it. No question. The injury has affected my life on a deep level. I don't run any more but am still in pain walking, can't do any rec sports, nothing. In pain at night. It limits the kinds of jobs I can take. It means I can't go on walks or hikes with my friends.

Anyway, yeah, I'd jump at something that could take that away and get me back to running, but I don't know if I'd compete. I'm not sure. I don't think it would be right. Just to do training and time trials on the track would be enough :).

I don't really condemn people who use PEDs. We don't know their life story. There may be some kind of desperation. We just don't know. I used to think very differently on this.

I feel with you. I think I might be able to help (with some PEDs obviously) healing old injuries some more is nothing unreachable.. I just dont know how to post an email here discreetly

has to do with growth hormone *wink wink*

Not MD, just PhD wrote:

HPTA wrote:

Hey PhD, What is your source for HPTA disruption being permanent with resumption of training and eucaloric status in males and females?

Just years of experience working with everyone from elite, Olympians in endurance sports to middle-aged women who've dieted themselves into the Fem. Athl. Triad. Never seen anyone recover to normal training (if it's an athlete) without having to use drugs. Once the HPTA is disrupted, it never seems to go back to normal on it's own...unless the person stops training (or even exercising much) altogether.

Prior to the popularization of Clomid and other SERMs* by Dan Duchaine beginning in the 1980s, athletes generally didn't take anything "post-cycle" (after discontinuing steroids). They simply stopped, and let their bodies recover. In most cases, this did and does (not everyone uses PCT--Post-Cycle Therapy--even today) happen...but not always. While men vary widely in their susceptibility to being permanently "shut-down", those who don't see their testosterone levels slowly return to where they were before using steroids--taking into account aging as a factor--are those who took high doses for very long periods of time, esp without using SERMs and hCG intermittently during cycles. Some drugs seem to be particularly suppressive; nandrolone, for example.

Even for those who with hardy HPTAs, who seem to recover fully from long cycles with moderate-to-high doses, PCT is practiced by the overwhelming majority because it dramatically cuts the time needed to restore normal testosterone levels. No male athletes wants to 1) be impotent, or 2) Gain 20lbs of muscle while taking steroids, stop taking steroids, and quickly lose all of that muscle while gaining slabs of flab.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_estrogen-receptor_modulator

If you're using it to get up to normal levels I don't see what the problem is (except for undesirable side effects). Especially if you're not winning anything.