Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Thanks. Definitely reading through this whole thing, it's actually a rare quality training thread for once.

Yeah this thread is one of the best I have ever read on here, if not the best. It's saved on my quick links on my browser. Always good to see it come back to life again. Highly recommend the totally troll free Strava group, some fantastic discussions on there to. I think jiggymesiter linked to it a couple of pages back on 97.

Wow we will make 100 pages. Pretty epic . Congratulations everyone.

So if you were in 18:30 shape for 5k what pace would your 10x1k be?

Based on postmaster’s take that it’s Daniels T pace, 18:30 5k is about 54.5 on the vdot table, which is about 6:23/mi. T pace, each K in about 3:58.

Before knowing what pace it should be, I want to emphasize that such volume in a single session (10 x 1K) should be done when running enough weekly mileage to support it, i.e. something in the 90-100 km range (55-62 mpw).

Someone running 40 mpw should be doing less volume. Don't rush into the highest volume in a single session.

Accumulate enough stress throughout many sessions. It is much safer that way.

That being said, something around 3:58-4:00/km pace would be suitable for a 18:30 5K runner, in flat and good conditions.

There might be one best unit out of these Sirpocs units

25x400 @ 99% CV, 30s rest
10k1k @ 15k pace, 60s rest
6x1mi @ 10 mile pace, 60s rest
5x2k @ HMP to 25k pace, 60s rest
3k @ 25k-30k pace, 60s rest

For the mathematicans and data nerds, i have the following thought experiment:

Lets assume you do 3min reps each. More reps can be done at lower intensity.

A) E.g. 7 reps at 98%CV, total 21min (7x3min). Imagine 10k pace.

B) 9 reps at 94%CV, total 27min (more reps can be done as intensity is lower, imagine HM pace)

Which unit generates the higher stress score?

It seems to be there could be an optimum (intensity, duration).

I've always gone with the guide posted here and the spreadsheet widely used in the Strava group, capping it at 25% of total time for the week? That has worked out well . I don't know how sirpoc came up with this number, but I have tried 30+% for 2 weeks once and actually really felt it bad. Dropped down to 25% again, suddenly felt fresh again. So there is fine margin here. Note, I have followed guide and this is based on overall weekly time, not distance.

This is a good question, but I think Hard2find made a amazing spreadsheet he share in the Strava group , where you can play around and input different workouts and their associates paces which generate TSS score. I have a play around, there's not a huge amount of difference in 10*1k versus 3*3200 other than the extra 400m. Big drop off when you go to MP and slower in overall load , but I guess you can do more of it, but then you start to fall into overuse risk. But to me no point, do not make any sense. This system as is I think close to optimal, with just small tweaks for individual user. This ticks all boxes for time crunch athlete and best bang for buck.

I could be an outlier, but I find that I’m working much too hard at HM pace for it to be sustainable, which we all agree is the key to this method (time under load, month to month, year to year). I’m intrigued by sirpoc and the M pace experiment, because M pace and slightly slower (+ 30 sec) is a pace that I can recover from much more easily. I can do 4 of those sessions (basically true tempo runs) per week and finish feeling pleasantly tired.

A complete waste of time.

Think of how some cyclists are organizing: a lot of Z2 with some upper end work.

The main problem of course is the impact forces and the intensity/duration you have in running vs cycling.

Integrating the two is a great way to be flexible with the stress and impact at the same time keeping the overall time under tension much higher.

The experiment of running 5-6 x 30:00 @ M still stands as an interesting idea -- no takers yet though!

Realistically this experiment would probably need a cycling element, say:

30:00@M pace

60:00-75:00 Z2 bike

30:00@M pace
60:00-75:00 Z2 bike

30:00@M pace
60:00-75:00 Z2 bike

I wish TM still had the calc up so we could look at CV pace. JD calc still will give you most other paces (not all) and distances.

didnt realize Tinman site no longer works...

somebody did it in a pdf in increments:

Wow, if it stays down, that is very unfortunate, but that is a nice pdf.

I just checked, and his more detailed calculator is still available on final surge (free). (Have to be in classic mode and click the calculator icon, then select Tinman).

9x3:00 @ HM generates higher stress than 7x3:00 @ 10K

How long does this training take to deliver results?

In January I did 5x1 mile and 8x1k each week (think I did 5 sessions in total) at 6:15-6:25 then did a parkrun in 18:32. Had chest pain in the final mile. Got totally demotivated and switched back to 12x400 and ran 17:56 in March. Maybe I was just going too slow?

Link by chance? I only saw the altitude conversion calculator there...