50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Smoove,

Happy birthday and welcome! I've been appreciating your posts for many years and I hope you'll be able to get your mojo back as a 50+.

I've been off this thread for several weeks, having been completely derailed at age 63 by multiple health issues, not all running related. I'm still hoping to be back, but only when I have something more positive to post.

Houston Indoor 9 Days Out Track Session Friday - Had to get it in regardless of the 43F windy weather. It's a classic workout for me over the years... always have to do it solo; for what it's worth.

W-Up Well

300 at 53pt

600 time trial at 1:45pt

400 at 69pt

200 at 33pt

Full recovery in between reps as much as 10mins after 600

One more speed session Mon or Tue then indoor 800 next Sunday.

Feeling as good as I can be at age 61.5.

Hope all y'all are having a good new year as well

KP

Greetings !

BigMango: Heart rate deviation from normal is an issue of a serious concern, for sure. Hope you caught the signs of it not too late. At first sight it looks like your latest 2 marathons (both outstandingly fast) in hard Thai conditions might have contributed to an overstress. I am not a doc, but think it’s a universal advice to take a break and switch to easy running until the HR gets back to norm in all the training “modes” and the rest. I use to measure HR immediately after wake-up in the morn, and if it is 3-4 bpm above normal, no intensive work on that day. And if 5-6+, an easy run only or a full rest.

Smoove: Happy birthday and best of luck with your “revival” plans. Just do not hurry up!

Charlie: Thanks for your video. As usual, very interesting!

Newbi: Good luck with “mud fest”. Yeah, ugly but useful. Thanks for mentioning my skiing. Indeed, I find it more useful to develop an aerobic capacity and heal injuries in such a way, though sacrificing the running form. I recall there was not enough snow in 19/20 winter so I kept running and then was in bad cycle “injury- recovery-training-injury…” all the season. The next winter (20/21) was good and I did not run for nearly 3 months, but then picked up in 6-8 weeks and the running race season was much better. This winter is close to record in terms of snow (55-60 cm already around my place), so I am trying to copy the previous season (currently even with an increase of some 10%).

MagicShoes#16: Best wishes and good recovery for your wife. Hold on.

KPdx: Quite an impressive speed! Good luck with 800 next Sunday!

My week was good, kept on skiing logging 485 min. For a low miler like me it is a relatively high number.

Happy and injury-free running to all!

M62, 5'11", 182 lbs

Age 23: 16:04, 2:40:30

Age 43: 17:10, 2:56:03

Age 58: 18:58, 3:07:23

RACE CALENDAR

Feb 12: 10-mile

April 24: Half marathon

May 29: Marathon

JANUARY 31 - FEBRUARY 6, 2022

M - Off

Tu- 7.7 miles @ 8:44/mi (9:45 > 7:55)

W - Off

Th- Off

F -- Off

Sa- 15.2 miles @ 9:25/mi (9:35 > 8:53)

Su- Off

TOTAL: 22.9 MILES

Cold, snow and ice kept me off the roads for a few days, so I took advantage of "rested legs" and went a bit longer yesterday. That fits my philosophy: Long Runs + Rest = Marathon Success.

Yesterday morning was 12°F, 10 mph breeze, sunny and lovely, with clear pavement in the center of the roads. Shoulders were horrific, but almost no traffic, so only occasional forays into the snow and ice.

Run well!

Hi KP, serious 800m training. Very cool. Hope to do comparable stuff in April. All the best for your race.

Again and again and again my base week:

Mo 7 miles easy, 5x100m with jog back

Tu 30 min jumps and drills uphill, 6x60m uphill, 2x150m uphill

We 7 miles easy, 5x100m with jog back

Th 12 km steady

Fr 7 miles easy, 5x100m with jog back

Sa 2 miles WU, 8x400m uphill with jog back, 2 miles CD, mud fest. Hikers joked about my dirty clothes afterwards.

Su 90 min pleasant walk in wind and rain (under an umbrella). Isnt the saying: it is raining cats and dogs?

Will continue stubbornly with my base week until I feel superman strong.

Have fun...

Newbi

Will continue stubbornly with my base week until I feel superman strong.

Amen!

KP Nice workout You R Ready to Rock the 8

Allen nice long run

Recovery...Base...Speed...Race

Not much going on just making the doughnuts

Highlight was an hour of slogging in the sand longest run in awhile felt easy so maybe the right type of cross training can maintain running specific fitness while reducing impact damage.

Reduced Impact Damage RID IMO is the holy grail of running . A real super shoe.

Until a true Super Shoe comes along ,a lack of durability can be mitigated with low impact running specific cross training .

Even with a low impact stabile shoe that feels like barefoot running cross training will still be useful.

If I was Shelby H and clean as fresh alpine snow I would drug up to the max with the goal of PRing by huge amounts across the board IOW show such a huge drug induced improvement that I could not have possibly been cheating

Pig offal, green pepper and potato burrito. Breakfast of champions. 😷

Smoove, welcome to the thread. Best of luck on sorting out what you want to do with your future running. Lots of posts this past week. Mopac, solid effort on your 4 Peaks. It's tough to grind it out when you know your not at the fitness level you want to be at. Week 4 of base work for me. More of the same for 54 miles -

M- 6mi walk

T- 8mi hills 9:37/mi

W- 6mi walk

Th- 8mi hills 9:42/mi

F- 6mi walk

S- 10mi trails with my son 9:03/mi

Su- 10mi trails 9:43/mi

Good running to all!

happy pre-Super Sunday. ok week of training around some hectic work days, esp. 2 full days of interviews for a search I'm chairing for new Dean of our college:

M 1:15 double

Tu 1:30 with drills and strides

W 1:20 with 4 X 5:00 (3:00 jog) hard

Th 1:00

F 1:00

Sa 2:20 with 25:00 at marathon pace (a little faster than that -- thru 5k in 21:18)

Su 1:30

have a great week,

Dave

Hi Orient,

Maybe you are controling your effort by heart rate? When you run that high amount of threshold work as I have seen in your log during base phase (if I recall correctly), then the intensity on your running muscles may be too high. You probably even increase the amount of intensive training when coming out of the base phase. So you broke in the 20 season. In contrast, if you do XC ski with the same heart rate as it would be your running threshold pace, then the intensity in your legs is lower (as you use much more muscles for skiing). You can can develop your aerobic capabilities better. When you transform from skiing to running, the intensity is probably lower as well compared to your 20 spring. So, you got not injured during your 21 season. If your "threshold" XC skiing intensity equals the intensity on your legs at 85% of your threshold running pace, then I call this ideal steady state. Steady state runs/skiing is great for base phase. Weird? Please apologize if I present my thoughts without being asked. I am terribly curious to understand the training of others.

BR

Newbi wrote:

DickMargarita wrote:

Lots of great training going on in here!

I really focused on slowing down easy days to attack workout days a bit more. My recap:

Mon: 11.7M @ 7:29s + 4x 20" strides

Tue: AM 4.5M @ 7:58s | PM Hills 3' 3' 2' 2' 2' 1' 9M Total

Wed: 12M @ 7:02s

Thu: 10M @ 7:23s

Fri: Workout 14' tempo (5:33) + 14' of 2/2 (5:15/6:00) Total 10.3M

Sat: Hilly 9.3M @ 8:01s

Sun: LR 16M @ 6:55s A few uptempo middle miles, and a fast close the last 2M

Total 83M

Hi DickMaragarita,

I am trying to figure out you aerobic capabilities. Have you done a lactate testing lately? Which protocol? Or what can you run in 1 hour?

Cheers

I have never done lab testing, but I’ll provide some recent results. I’m fairly linear on the range from short to long races, probably a little stronger on the longer races as that’s where I’ve focused training the last year and a half. All but the marathon are untapered.

5000 road: 16:17

10000 road: 33:56 (a year ago, probably slightly more fit than that now)

10 mile: 56:30

1/2: 1:14:48

Marathon: 2:35:22

LT is somewhere in the 5:37-5:42 range I’d say

Thanks Newbi! I wasn't really concerned but was interested in how others reacted to hard training. I have read other posters describing elevated heart rates and this has never been my response. If I was overtrained a few days ago, it was minor considering the prior few week intensity and volume.

As for the TH run I mentioned, it was a one run odd experience and the next day was running well. It was probably minor food poisoning - need to improve my hygiene when in a rush. Picking up questionable roadside food and eating on the go without washing my hands is going to end poorly at times. Disgusting I know but it is how I roll.

DAMN SAM...this is why I come here...some of your training sessions just blow my mind...and I was a 60's / 70's kid, so totally 'get' mind blowing, if you catch my drift.

Owain Lewes, I got GREAT enlarged prostate relief at around age 56 when they went in and did some kind of a donut laser procedure...never ever problematic since.

AMkelley, stay the course..the body is an amazingly adaptive machine...if YOU don't throw in the towel and instead continue to bombard that body with care, it shall respond...visualize a postive end result...every single day...no days off.

Smoove...dude, you are a relatively young man...in the words of a favorite reggae cat, Jimmy Cliff, 'you can get it if you really want...but you must try...try and try,...you'll succeed at last'

KP, you, my former housemate while in Boston circa 1986, bro, those sessions are 'wicked' fast...see you soon.

DHaaga your marathon strength training just boggles my mind...you've gota be taking DMSO or something

My stuff wasn't anything overly special this week...almost eclipsed 30 miles for an 11th consecutive week on this, the countdown to 66 revolutions around the sun. Aside from a couple of fairly bad ass hill runs (the hill just outside of my front gate in reference takes nearly 20 minutes to ascend on a good day), I had but one highlight.

Said high point was a scintillating 2 mile time trial in 14:16..as I was once a collegiate 9:03 performer at said distance, the geezer in me was pleased, but not overly impressed...particularly as it was a point-to-point, unmeasured road course with net elevation gain, and with wind at my back, while in super shoes

Well, not entirely true...but nonetheless ;}

Wishing you all another swell week of progress.

your pal,

MF

First and foremost... Man KP, that's some solid running right there. You're ready to roll!

Week 3 Bayshore HM

My week went well. Tad over 50 miles. Nothing to complain about, other than the weather. We were blasted with 12" of snow Wed/Thur. So I was on the treadmill all but Mon & Sun. And that's ok.

Mon: 6.27 Miles in 52:32 [8:22 per mile]

Tue: am: 3 Miles in 26:01 [8:40 per mile] pm: 5.5 Miles in 41:53 [7:36 per mile] 3 Tempo 6:51,6:42,6:29 (20:02)

Wed: 5 Miles in 43:39 [8:43 per mile]

Thu: 6 Miles in 48:51 [8:08 per mile] with 8x30 sec @ 5:46 pace

Fri: am: 4 Miles in 35:15 [8:48 per mile] pm: 3.5 Miles in 30:31 [8:43 per mile]

Sat: 10 Miles in 1:16:54 [7:41 per mile] 1 mile E 8:40 then...Miles 2-9.75 8:00-7:14...last 1/4 accel to 6:00

Sun: 6.97 Miles in 1:00:43 [8:42 per mile] Mostly crappy footing 80% of the time! Snow, ice, slush.

Think I'll do some CV reps this week and try to extend my long run a bit.

Entered my 2nd race of the year tonite. A super fast 5K up near Grand rapids on June 11. I should be good to go by then!

Have a good run,

Dave

Hey Charlie, Here is a post I made replying to you back in 2018. Think we are both on to something that works for us at least. Reduce impact forces even if it results in slightly slower times. If I train exclusively on the road, I will get a little faster vs incline treadmill runs but the risk of injury goes up exponentially. One big update to the below post. Running my hard workouts at 0% on the treadmill also ended badly. Now I rarely go under 10% for easy and hard days. Probably 50/50 road/dirt vs incline treadmill.

Sorry it took me so long to answer the incline treadmill question. Opposite side of the world and sleeping when most here are posting. I could go on and on about incline TM training and will try my best to refrain. Really enjoy this thread and don't want to wear my welcome out.

Agree with all the other previous answers. About 5 years ago after a 2 month injury break, I was able to run/walk at steep inclines minus the impact stress. Trained almost exclusively for 2 months at 10%+ inclines. Tempo runs at 5 mph and 15%(sometimes 1 hr) were murder but the next day I felt great. My heart rates would exceed my half marathon HR. I was able to hammer 3 hard sessions a week consistently without the usual stiffness.

Ran my first ever half marathon after this 2 month incline training. Wasn't expecting much but surprised myself with a 1:15:09 in terrible conditions (80 *F and 100% humidity ).

Currently all my training is at inclines or the elliptical with the exception of workouts. My workouts are every third day at 0% incline or outside. Some on this thread can handle the roads and trails consistently. I have conceded this is not in the cards and work within my limits.

BigMango thanks for the original reply and update.

IMO huge untapped potential for better TM designs some stuff coming out of late in the mean time I am very happy with my True PS100 unplugged at 9 percent. Pushing the belt with the power off at 9percent feels really good kinda like pushing a small car .

Did a WTFAIA in the sand lots of figuring but I am a few tics slower than 6 per mile for 2 miles say 11:22 for 3k with the goal of 10:48 May 7th about 4 seconds per 400 better than I expected at this point but def a long shot. I like long shots.

No racing to report, just in base phase, but here's a quick update.

Trying out a modification of the Norwegian/Bakken training model, modified for an aging-aged mid-range runner.

Past six weeks have run 40s-low 60s/week and mixed in 1-2 days of XC skiing and a little bit of cycling. Have been at 9 - 10.9 hours of training, with two double workouts and a long effort.

Tue/Thurs AM reps of 5 minutes starting at MP and getting toward lower end of threshold. Started with 3X 4.5 minutes and now at 6X5 with short recovery. PM hill reps at threshold to 10K effort, usually on 5-7% grade. About 75-80% of the workouts have been outside, but we had a number of snow days so had to go to the treadmill. And on Friday I did my running reps in the morning and drove up for some skiing in the afternoon where I did 14 minutes of hill reps on skis (skating).

Have built up weekly long run or ski to just under 2:30. I'm ski racing 20K next weekend, first race in eight years. Then I'll be shifting to a more traditional HM and marathon schedule for the spring.

Hope everyone has good health and good training.

Hello Newbi,

I appreciate your analysis of my training, sounds quite reasonable, thanks!

You are right about the muscles: according to some research, the amount of total muscle mass used by cyclists is about 40%, runners use 60, and XC skiers up to 80.

Regarding threshold in XC skiing and running, I specially added “by feel” meaning that my personal estimate is “I can run/ski at this pace for about an hour”. While my LT bpm is about 144 at running (measured in a lab a year ago), a similar effort during skiing results in 132-134 bpm only. To push it up to 140-144 I do long 5-6 min intervals (on feet it would be 150+). Mostly this is because my skiing technique is double polling, only short segments of the courses around my place allow for freestyle (skating-like) that could elevate HR. The question I have no answer to is whether 144/run and 134/ski are really equal in terms of aerobic or endurance development?

Anyway, lack of 150+ bpm workouts in winter requires quite some time to adapt in spring, but it is doable. Another point is weight (I do not call it an issue though). The upper body part of the guy in the mirror in November differs significantly from the one in March and it takes about 2-3 months to get rid of some extra kilos.

Best of luck!

Nice TT MikeF….